Raising Resilient Kids: Balancing Support and Challenge – Keith Kurlander & Dr. Will Van Derveer – HPP 143

Keith Kurlander [00:00:07]:
Thank you for joining us for the Higher Practice podcast. I’m Keith Curlander with Dr. Will Vanderveer and this is the podcast where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health. Okay, here we go. Talking about parenting today as we’re both parents.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:29]:
Yep. We’re at two different stages in the journey.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:32]:
I know, like radical different stages. Yeah, I’m just getting started. Yep.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:38]:
Yep. And my daughter is almost done with college, so. Very different stage.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:44]:
Yeah. And it’s a cool conversation. Cause it’s, it’s, it’s cool to think about how do you do this? Well and you know, where are, are the pitfalls and where aren’t the pitfalls? And you know, it’s a cool conversation. So yeah, we’re gonna dive in there.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:00]:
Well, maybe we should start with like, what, what, what are the. When you think about parenting, like what are your goals around parenting? Like what are you actually trying to do as a parent?

Keith Kurlander [00:01:10]:
Yeah, well, let me say I have a 6 year old girl and a 8 month old boy. So different answers probably for those two ages. For me, I mean, I think there’s the larger arc of a kid’s life and what am I trying to do as a parent? For me, I would say I’m wanting to help, do whatever I can to create a healthy child in terms of internal resources and internal health and external skills and know how to be in this world in a reliable way and healthy relationship patterns. Like, I’m trying to do my part in helping that happen. But I think like, if I was to really sum it up, I really, for me, it’s like I want to zoom in on my kids unique genius and focus on that and help them, really help them see who they are and make them feel safe to become more of themselves in this world. So I would answer that on a larger level. But we could get into like, well, what happens at different ages because that is different. But what would you say in terms of what do you want to do as a parent in like kind of a large meta way?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:21]:
Yeah, I think the question was really more about the outcome and what are we, you know, like you said, the big arc of parenting. And for me, well, first of all, I was just in a lot of survival when I was a young parent. Like I was 31 when my daughter was born. So I was just like not anywhere near as self aware as I am today. I’d like to think I am today. So my daughter would maybe argue with that a little bit because she’s really good at arguing about how developed I am.

Keith Kurlander [00:02:46]:
I mean, there’s days. I would argue with that. Hey, you would argue with that too about me.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:50]:
Yeah, definitely, Definitely have my days. But I think the overall goal for me is similar to what you said is like, I want to have my daughter feel. I want to help her to feel really empowered in the world in her voice and her gifts and talents and to have the resilience to face the challenges of life with flexibility and grace and yeah, to, to have a perspective about life that I don’t think she’s going to have probably in her 20s, but you know, the perspective that a lot of things that happen in life are not personal and there’s a lot of things you can control and can’t control. But you know, to have psychological flexibility and openness and strong boundaries, capacity to really feel her intuition. I think just a really empowered person who can, who can navigate relationships in a, in a successful way.

Keith Kurlander [00:03:50]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, that, I guess that leads really well into just how do you accomplish that? And again, every, you know, human being’s unique and they have their own journey and, but as a parent, like what, what can we do to set our children up for the, you know, outcomes that we’re talking about? How can we contribute to that potential outcome for a child? So I think a good starting point is just talking about the health of a parent. And you know, we all, hopefully many of us are doing our best. Obviously, like most people would say, well, many people would say I’m doing my best. That’s kind of, doesn’t mean they are doing their best, but they might say that. I mean, we all, you know, many of us love our kids and we’re trying hard. Right. But what, what are the factors?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:04:40]:
Good intentions.

Keith Kurlander [00:04:41]:
Good intentions. But what are the protective factors is what we’re really talking about. Right. I think a cool conversation is the concept of support and challenge. And starting there again, this is not for a infant. We’re talking as the kid gets a little older, support and challenge. Well, it is also for an infant. We could talk about that. But let’s just talk about the concept of support and challenge as a starting point.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:05:03]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I think in a, in a culture where many of us felt, at least, I’ll speak for myself, felt over challenged and under supported in a lot of ways as a kid. They’re in a, in a generation where I think many of us felt that way. Looking back on our childhoods there, there’s often, what, what I see often in parents, including myself, is a tendency to Go to the swing, to the other end of the pendulum and over support our kids, protect them from challenges that might actually help if they could, if they could experience titrated challenges, it might actually help them get to that goal we were just talking about more effectively than eliminating challenges. One great example I think of that is like the participation trophy that, you know, is ubiquitous now in children playing sports. It’s like it’s, it’s not okay for one person to win the, let’s say, soccer championship trophy and then nobody, and then the other team gets nothing. Right. Or, and you know, so what does that, what does that do, you know, if everyone gets a trophy no matter how hard you try.

Keith Kurlander [00:06:17]:
Right, yeah, so that’s a great point. So. And again, we could generalize and maybe Gen X was more, I mean, again, this is a big generalization, but maybe we see some more over challenge under support and then millennial Gen Z, we start to see that flip. Sometimes more support than challenge. Again, this is a large generalization. I mean, it’s not true when you go down to the individual level, but I think there is some truth in that. At least you hear that. I mean, you read about this in the news about Gen zers and millennials, about how they have like, you know, entitlement stuff and around being over supported. But whether it’s true or not, it doesn’t really matter. I think the, in the end, I concepts of support and challenge is something that is super important for parents to think about, that they probably don’t think that much about in terms of these terms. And like, how much am I supporting my child? How much am I challenging my child? And so support. I just want to run through a couple more examples just to kind of flush out a little because I had said, well, maybe you just only do support with infants. That’s not true. So support for an infant is obviously getting them fed when they need to get fed, soothing them when they need to be soothed, changing your diaper. Yeah, but challenge might look like sleep training. It might look like weaning off of breastfeeding for a breastfeeding mom prior to then when the child would have done it themselves.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:46]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:07:46]:
There’s a number of places we can identify in basic needs where actually there is a challenge that can be offered. And again, these are all different philosophies and things, but the point is that, you know, at almost any age there is a balance point between these two things that helps a human being feel secure in the world, you know, safe, that they can be helped and receive from support and that they feel that they can grow to their edge and get beyond it and get to a new edge. And that it’s not just self challenge that we’re being challenged by other.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:08:24]:
Right, right.

Keith Kurlander [00:08:25]:
We go, you know, as we, as soon as we get past, you know, infancy and we get into childhood, I mean we get into like toddlerhood now there’s real challenges with boundaries and things and we get a little older now we’re challenging our kids potentially in a lot of ways, whether it’s school or sports or how they talk to each other. And we’re really challenging them on talking in a certain way and not another way. And then there’s work could start very early of like doing your chores and you know, how you’re contributing in the house. Right. To maybe doing more than that. And so I’m just flushing it out a little support and challenge.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:09:03]:
Yeah. And the idea that resilience doesn’t get developed without challenge.

Keith Kurlander [00:09:10]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:09:10]:
There’s an old. This is a little bit horrible to bring up this example, but there, there’s. There’s a well, well known research study looking at what causes mice to give up when they’re thrown in a bucket of water and asked to swim around. And the punchline is that mice who experienced challenge prior to the swim test is what they call it. It’s kind of terrible because they just time it until the mouse gives up and drowns. But mice who were challenged in certain ways prior to this swim test fight for their lives a lot longer than mice who were not challenged and just given food and water and all the things. So you see this in the schoolyard as a kid. You know, I remember seeing this as a kid that the boys that I played with who had big brothers who inevitably tortured them, you know, at certain times until the parents, you know, broke them up or whatever, had skills on the, and, and strengths and a willingness to fight longer for whatever they believed in than some of the kids who were only kids or didn’t have that level of challenge at home. So the point here is that, and, and I think this goes for any relationship that the, the way, you know, I think you and I agree about this, that the way that we love people is a balance of support and challenge.

Keith Kurlander [00:10:33]:
Yeah, I think about, it’s a good example. I think about last year my daughter was in preschool and I just remember she was having, you know, trouble with the boys. She kept saying she was having trouble with the boys. They play rougher and she doesn’t like it and and so, you know, one intervention which sometimes is necessary is the teachers intervening, you know, and I would call that support and that’s sometimes necessary. And the other intervention that I mostly used with her because she wasn’t in danger or anything is really helping her know how to either go get help or to stand up for herself, you know, with these boys and really learn about her own boundaries and things. But like, that’s a challenge for her. Like it was a challenge for me to put it back on her. And you know, we worked with that and in this case it was, you know, it was easy to put it back on her because she wasn’t in danger or anything. And, and she was well held at the school. I knew that at an example that’s.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:11:34]:
A really important skill is to ask for help and to learn that help is available. Right. I mean, it’s a huge injury for a child to learn that help is unreliable, dangerous, unavailable and so on.

Keith Kurlander [00:11:50]:
Yeah. So there’s sort of the basic day to day living as a kid that parents can think through in terms of support and challenge. Where I get, where this gets really interesting for me is how much do we challenge our kids to in terms of what they’ll become as an adult, in terms of when do they start adulthood, when does that start? And like, when do they need to be ready by, and you know, do they need to be ready by the time they’re, you know, 15, 16, do they need to be ready by the time they’re 18, 20, 30? Never like, like what are we doing? And, and how are we organizing the way we’re parenting to really get them ready? And I think there’s a lot of sort of assumptions, oh, they go to school and they’re getting ready there and like, and we do things like, without thinking too much about it as parents, but you know, on the extreme end of that, we see parents who, you know, push their kids sometimes to do things that aren’t in their values but like to become, you know, professional athletes or early or you know, celebrities or things where they’ve really pushed their kids into, or musicians and things where they’ve, they’ve pushed them. But so where I think it gets interesting is like, how much do your challenge your kid to have, you know, really big mastery by some age around some life skills and some, you know, technical skills that’s hopefully within their values. And when do you start leaning in there in terms of challenging them to get that disciplined as a kid? You know, there’s a lot of different views on this, some Are like, what would they just need to play and be in an imaginative space and as long as possible and.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:13:38]:
Yeah, well, and a related challenge for parents is, you know, how soon are you going to narrow down the choices that your kid has? Right, right. So it’s a similar, it’s a similar challenge for parents is like, I remember when my daughter was maybe 11 or 12, she was playing soccer and she, you know, got, she practiced and did a couple seasons and got better at it. And then someone said you should be on this travel team and she really wanted to do that. And her mom, my wife at the time and I were like, boy, she, she’s an artist. She has a lot of vibrant friendships. There’s a lot of different things that she’s good at. Soccer is one thing that she loves. But there are all these other aspects of being a well rounded individual. And do we want to become parents who are, you know, committing every weekend to be on the road at soccer games? You know, is that, is that the world is that really most aligned with our daughters values and gifts and talents? And we decided not to do that because we wanted her to have this more well rounded, imaginative play kind of vibe that you’re talking about. And you know, later on my daughter and I, 10 years later had a huge conflict about that, her bringing to me, you know, you didn’t support me. I could have been a Division 1 college, you know, soccer player. And why didn’t you do that?

Keith Kurlander [00:15:05]:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:15:07]:
And so that’s, you know, of course the parents can relate who are listening to this is like, you don’t know. You don’t have a crystal ball. You don’t know what the future is.

Keith Kurlander [00:15:14]:
Yeah, you don’t know. And well, I think, you know, when you pull into that conversation the layer of sacrifice as a parent around your kids and that’s a big, another big piece of it. It’s like I don’t want to be sitting at a soccer game every weekend because I don’t like soccer. But I probably would do it if my kid, like, if I really saw that in my kid as like, this is, this is all my kid wants to do, I would probably make this sacrifice. But that’s, that’s more uncommon, I think that it gets that monofocused and that disciplined in themselves. I. But it can happen. Yeah. And I think for me, like I, I feel like there’s also this conversation of like, what is going to prepare them because the world’s changing so fast right now. Imagine the impact you could have with your clients when you’re able to practice the most cutting edge modality available today. Psychedelic therapy is the future of mental health care and the Integrative Psychiatry Institute will empower you with the tools and knowledge you need to master this exciting modality. IPI’s comprehensive training and in person experiential practicums will elevate you personally and professionally. Its in depth curriculum is the gold standard certification in the field. When you join, you will step into a global community of thousands of innovative colleagues who are integrating psychedelic therapy into their practices. Visit psychiatryinstitute.com Reply where you will find all the information you need about IPI’s training. And when you visit psychiatryinstitute.com apply. You’ll also receive IPI’s free ebook getting Started with Psychedelic Therapy so you can get the most up to date information immediately. Again, that’s psychiatryinstitute.com apply to learn more about the training and to get your free ebook way faster than it was when we were kids.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:08]:
Oh, it’s so much harder for parents now. So much.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:11]:
Yeah. So like it’s changing quick. So it’s like what is, what do we need to help support and challenge our kids around so that they’re have what they need when they go on their own and go, you know, live their life. And I tend to want to, you know, my inclination right now is honing in on what I see as my, I’ll talk about my daughter is 6, her gifts and really going deep down that road with her. Like as I see them developing as they start to show up more. She happens to be a kid where certain things are showing up right. Not every kid’s like that. Some kids are just very more like rounded in the sense like they like a lot of things. She’s showing a lot of, lot of interest in more of performance and dance and singing and you know, so I’m like yeah, we’re going to go all in there. Like if I, if, if she loves that and it’s like I want, you know, I want her to and she loves it and then she does. It’s like one of the few things she’ll do and not tell her to do ever. You know she would be in a, she would be in a dance class or singing lessons or acting like all day. She wouldn’t even resist me saying anything. It’s like, it’s like so apparent and so for me, like I’m, where I’m going with it in my own head is like yeah, I want to challenge her as long as she keeps showing that level of devotion and interest, like, to get good at that.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:44]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:45]:
As a kid, like, not wait till she’s 15 or 20 or, you know, like, I’m, I’m kind of coming in with a different thing of like, well, I want to help my kid get great at that. Why they’re, why they’re under my roof.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:58]:
And so you’ll be looking at, you know, for example, do you. Are you going to send your kid to a performing arts high school?

Keith Kurlander [00:19:06]:
You know, if she’s still, if that’s still her jam. Yeah, I think, absolutely. I mean, I mean, already I’m thinking about education a lot of what prepares a kid properly for this world. You know, I don’t think education, generally speaking, is designed to like, effectively prepare people for the reality of the world. It’s not really designed that way, unfortunately. I think there’s some good things we do with public education, but I think it’s also not really designed to. For someone to just go launch and have everything they need to get out there and understand themselves. And so I think for her, you know, I want her to be in an environment that’s really teaching her the social, emotional pieces of relating. But I also want her, if she keeps showing this interest, like, yeah, we’re going to increase the amount of lessons she’s doing, potentially be in a school sooner than later that’s really focused more on that. Like, I, I’m not. As I see the world changing around us, I feel like as a parent, I have to try and a little bit with a crystal ball, look into, like, well, what is it going to be like for kids in 15 years from now?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:20:22]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:20:22]:
And, you know, I’m not, I’m not putting a lot of weight into the way schooling is usually done for that. Like, I think I want to teach my kids on, you know, how to be an entrepreneur if they want, if they choose to go down that road. Doesn’t mean they will, but I think it’s important. As we see, when I look down the road, I see a jog market that’s progressively decreasing due to automation. So I want to teach my kid to be in that market space somehow of who they are and what can they bring to the table when there’s so much automation. Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:21:02]:
I mean, that’s one of the elements, I think, of an empowerment for our children is to know how to navigate the business world in a way where they don’t become trapped in some kind of unsatisfying career experience. But it also brings up for Me around what you were saying about school. Like what is school for? What does it do? It’s like you mentioned something about the relational. I forget the phrase you use.

Keith Kurlander [00:21:30]:
Social, emotional.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:21:31]:
Social emotional. Like.

Keith Kurlander [00:21:33]:
Yeah, social emotional learning.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:21:35]:
I think we skipped over, you know, a really important part of, you know, my desire as a parent is to help, you know, to train my kid to be competent in the skills involved in relating with other people. It’s fully, it’s fully learned. Right? I mean it’s, it’s a fully, it’s a skill based experience. How do you deal with conflict? How do you, you know, initiate a repair that’s effective when there’s been a rupture in your relationship with anyone? I mean these are, these are critical empowerments that, you know, many people are not getting trained in at all.

Keith Kurlander [00:22:12]:
Oh totally. And you know, great. If a school’s doing it well, that’s amazing. It’s not, I haven’t normal, although it’s not the. Our school’s doing it great, but it’s not the norm. But it’s changing. It’s way different than 20, even 20 years ago, let alone when we were in school. It is incorporated more and more to learn about these things, but there still could go so far. But in our home, like with my daughter, if she does something that you know, is a rupture essentially for us, like she did something that just wasn’t, didn’t feel good to us, like she knows, like we’re not moving on from that rupture until she repairs with us. Now it doesn’t mean she has to do it in the moment. If she needs to take space, we’re fine with that. But she knows she’s got to return to it and get through it and that’s important. I think that that that’s just one of many social, emotional, you know, skills and healthy attachment. And that is so key.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:13]:
How do you share impact?

Keith Kurlander [00:23:14]:
How do you share impact? How do you repair? How do you use your words in a healthy way to describe your own experience?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:23]:
How do you honor your own needs and also be open and receptive and you know, influenceable by the other person?

Keith Kurlander [00:23:30]:
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. All that so key.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:34]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:23:35]:
And so what are we preparing kids for? Right? So like again, as a parent, our roles has to be not only being in the moment, we have to somehow think about the future for of our kids just like we think about the future for our own lives. Hopefully not everyone does, but I do. But I didn’t always, but I do now. And if so if we’re preparing for our future for ourselves. We have to prepare for our future for our kids, right? So we have to hold that vision for them and think about what they need. Just like somebody’s thinking about their future, they go to college, let’s say, because they know they’re going to be X, Y and Z. And so that’s like you’re thinking about your future, you’re preparing for your future. It’s like we need to parent that way to be effective and in. For me, in, you know, 14, 13 years for my daughter, whatever it is, what does she need? Does she need. Are we preparing her for college? I don’t. I’m not. I mean, I think that she could choose to go there depending on what she decides she wants to do with her life. But I don’t know that college is. I think college might start to matter less and less over time based on what’s happening in the world. I think there’s. I think there’s definitely professions it’s never going to go away for, but as a general sort of launching pad for, you know, the, the most people, let’s say they launch from college and it’s a place you could go. You figure yourself out, you know what you’re to do, you figure out what you’re going to do with your life. So supposedly you get your major, but then we also see, like, for a lot of people, and when you look at stats, there’s a stat. I can’t remember if it was the university of somewhere, somewhere in England, there’s a. There’s a research study that showed that half people in England was questioning whether their career path was meaningful or not. Some crazy number graduate, college or otherwise.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:27]:
College.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:28]:
I don’t think it was about college or not. Just like, is my path meaningful? And there was another stat there of midlife crisis related to that. It was similar. It was like half of the people were like, yeah. And by midlife, I had a crisis of meaning around what I chose to do. And, you know, college isn’t going to solve that for you, that I know. So I’m not going to, like, tell my daughter that’s going to. That’s what college is for. Because it’s not in my mind for. For most people, it’s probably not. So for me, I’m. I’m like, I have to teach my daughter how to use her imagination and creativity. I have to teach her how to balance her, you know, her money. She has to know how to work with money, which is not taught in education.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:12]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:26:12]:
How do you deal with money? Right. And that’s a major mess. So my daughter’s already working with that. You know, it’s like anything from chores to, you know, she’s out selling lemon. We talk about, okay, you made this much money, this is going to go to taxes, this is going to go towards your future savings. This is what you have left over. You can build that. You could spend it in a day or you could spend it in a year. If you spend it in a day, you can get by a piece of candy. If you spend it in a year, you could buy something big. That’s up to you. And she’s learning that, you know, and it’s like these are such basic things that people really need to learn. And with a changing world, she needs to know how technology is going to be a major factor in her life. You have to know how to use technology in order to be an extension of your creativity. Right. And what you want to create, that’s going to become more and more true.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:27:04]:
Yeah. I think if I zoom back, you know, step back a couple feet, I think the meta for me is what’s the right amount of, you could say traditional training or education and what’s the right amount of training for the future? So like, for instance, these themes of secure functioning in relationship, those are perennial themes that go back, I think, as far back as we can imagine in the history of the species. Right. How do you cooperate with people, how do you get your needs met and so on.

Keith Kurlander [00:27:38]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:27:39]:
And then there are these relatively new techn, like AI and the automations you’re talking about in technology. We’re just at the very beginning of that conversation. It’s kind of like the very beginning of the Internet where, you know, we have absolutely no idea, we have ideas, but the, the extent of how that’s going to shape and change the way everyday life is experienced by people is hard to imagine right now. I mean, 20 years from now we’ll know a lot more about, you know, it’s like we’re 25 years into a MA, you know, a mature Internet and the beginning of AI, but it’s like we’re going through another wave right now.

Keith Kurlander [00:28:16]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:28:17]:
So how do we, how do we even hold that? You know, So I, I appreciate what you’re saying about. It’s gotta be a part of the conversation about parenting, but it’s hard to know. Right. I think there are people who probably overemphasize the training on technology and underemphasize the relational skills component. And there’s probably people, you know, some of the maybe Luddites out there who are more opposed to the breakneck speed of technology. And they’re kind of like overemphasizing the soft skills and sort of rejecting technology. So what’s the balance?

Keith Kurlander [00:28:53]:
I mean, you gotta give your kids all of it, I think. I mean, you don’t have to. You can do whatever you want. And it’s just philosophy. I, I want to give my kids all of it.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:03]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:29:03]:
And there’s a balance. There’s only so much time. I also don’t want it, you know, in terms of technology. I want my child to be able to know how to use technology. I don’t want them using it for recreation all day long and sucked into gaming and screens. That’s a different matter. I don’t, I don’t mean, you know, it as. I mean it more as a utility function.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:25]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:29:26]:
So I think there’s that and then there’s also just. I think they, you know, if they. For me, it’s like a child really needs to, to actually believe in themselves. And that, that, that takes some work. And, you know, I always want to focus. Right now with my kids. I’m. I’m wanting to focus on helping them find confidence in whatever they’re just really good at. Like, I, I’m okay if they’re. They know their limitations. I want them to know their limitations and they could work on those. But it’s like I want my kids to take away. Like, I’m good at this, and I know I’m good at this. And this is the thing I’m better at than most people around me. This is the thing, you know, I want my kid to know that about themselves. And that’s a hard thing to come out of, into adulthood knowing about yourself. Some do. I wasn’t that kid. I didn’t know. I wasn’t raised that way to know. But I saw some kids that were. It wasn’t me. But I think, you know, getting launched into adulthood in a very complicated world right now, it’s good to know what you’re good at.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:33]:
Yeah, it’s good to know what you’re good at. And it’s also, I think, really valuable to know. And again, I think this comes through adversity and challenge, at least some adversity and challenge that, that you trust your ability to get better at something or, you know, you, you feel at least some confidence in a competitive atmosphere. Because, you know, no matter how you slice it, when you, when you go out into the World, you’re entering a field of competition, you know, for resources.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:05]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:06]:
And how to do that in a way where you are not afraid to compete and put yourself out there.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:12]:
You know, where I go with this, too, is one thing as a parent that I see myself doing, and I bet you a lot of parents do, this is asking the question, how is my kid doing? And how am I doing as a parent? But how is my kid doing? Are they doing well? Are they struggling somehow? This is a tough question because it’s hard to sometimes answer it because they’re kids and, you know, the metrics are different than as an adult. And how am I doing? Am I doing okay? Do I have a mental health issue? Like, do I have a financial health issue? Do I have a. Those things are more. You know, you can look. And you may not want to ask the question, but you could go look at these things. Things. But with kids, it’s a little different. Right. Like, sometimes you could look at school and how they’re doing there or. But, like, kids are so different in their emotional body and their behaviors, and I think it’s hard for parents to ask the question and really be honest with themselves. Is my. Does my kid need some. Something more? Is my kid actually need play therapy because something’s going on? Does my kid need occupational therapy because something’s going on physically that I. That they need support with? You know, does my kid need educational support? Do I need support as a parent around boundaries and. And. Or do I need coaching to understand even how to work with my kid? Because they’re not treating people while I see it. This is hard for parents, I think, and there’s a lot can get missed. And then you often find out when the kid’s either blowing out as a teenager or maybe they’re an adult and you’re like, oh, now I see what they could have done differently. But it’s a little nicer to ask the question in the middle of it, you know?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:03]:
Well, I think it’s. As I hear you speak about. I agree with you that that is challenging. It’s. It’s humbling, right, To. I mean, even just entertaining the possibility that. That your kid or your family has some special. I don’t mean special needs as in like, you know, some kind of maybe extreme form of like, autism or needing a different classroom or something. I mean, that’s possible, but I’m just saying that, you know, acknowledging that your kid has limitations or a need. Right? Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:33:33]:
A need that’s not being addressed.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:35]:
Yeah. It’s it’s tender. And that’s where, you know, as I hear you talking about that it’s the only answer that makes any sense to me is community. And, you know, you and I are. Are, I think, really fortunate, really blessed to have relationships in our lives where, you know, we can actually call each other out about things that we see in a loving way of challenging one another. And those kind of social norms, if you will. Community norms are ways, you know, having intimate friendships as a parent with other parents can be super helpful to, you know, consider what you’re talking about, like, what. What is going on with my kid? And, you know, what do they need?

Keith Kurlander [00:34:18]:
Right. Yeah. And I think that, you know, it’s. It’s very important to ask the question and ask other people and get a sense, like, is how we grow is how we push ourselves. If we have a blind spot or something, we want to grow in. In ourselves as a person. And we’re going to hopefully ask that question where, what do I need to get over this hump that I’ve identified? And then with our children, how far are you willing to go with that? Right. Because every child’s unique. Every child needs something different, and it’s easy to assume that they’re getting it. Or maybe we’ve tried some things and it’s not working. And that’s where going to community is really important to ask community, what do you see going on with my kid and what do you see going on with me as a parent? How many people have actually ever asked that to their friends or their family? Just, hey, give me the truth. What do you see going on right now about my parenting? That’s. Most parents don’t ask that. You know, it’s scary.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:20]:
Yeah, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:21]:
Yeah, it’s scary. And it’s important. I mean, if we want to grow and get better as parents, that’s important.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:28]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:28]:
Sometimes we need coaching, right? Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:31]:
Yeah. Or even just hanging out with other parents in a. In an environment where the. The structure or the. What you’re up to as a group is like talking about solving problems. Parenting problems. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:46]:
And then you could also ask your kid, like, how do you feel about me as a parent?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:49]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:50]:
You know, checking in from time to time every couple years. How’s it going now? You know, like, tell me the truth. I really want to know.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:57]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:58]:
What’s the. What do you. What do you. What’s the. What do you see? What do you, like? What don’t you like? What’s going on here? These are things that I think Are, you know, hard to do nothing?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:36:08]:
Because I don’t think I ever heard that. I never, I’ve never heard that question from my parents. Different generation.

Keith Kurlander [00:36:13]:
Yeah. No.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:36:14]:
Did your parents ever ask you that?

Keith Kurlander [00:36:16]:
No, no, no.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:36:17]:
Yeah, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:36:19]:
No. But this is a conversation that. There’s not much in this conversation that was happening over there. Yeah, well, that’s not true. I mean, you know, obviously my parents did some things right. Like, I. I can see a lot of values in me that helped me get to where I am and. But no, they didn’t. They weren’t on that path.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:36:40]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:36:40]:
In fact, I don’t think most of the people I know have asked their children. I mean, I think my daughter’s still a little young for that question. She’s six and I could ask her, but I think she’s a little young. But soon, soon, I think is time for that question for her.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:36:54]:
Would that be like an annual review? And she’d Maybe.

Keith Kurlander [00:36:58]:
That’s great. Well, you know, I think that’s, you know, having family meetings and sort of checking in with each other about how everyone’s doing. Is there anything that hasn’t been cleared? Like, these things are so important.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:10]:
Yeah, yeah. Really valuable.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:13]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. And we’ve done some of that with, with our. With ours as a family where we check in, and I think we could do more. Well, this could be a good point to start closing here.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:25]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think. I think go ahead and talk about vaccines today.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:34]:
We won’t touch that.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:35]:
Yeah, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:37]:
But outside of vaccines, you could check in with your kids, how you’re doing. You could check in with your friends, how you’re doing. You could ask yourself the question, how, you know, how. What does my kid need?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:47]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:48]:
That maybe they’re not getting. Looking at the, you know, more specifically of like, do I challenge my kid enough? Do I support my kid enough? Am I setting my kid up enough for success? To. Am I giving them what I can give them when they’re launching? In the world that we’re entering into, Have I critically looked at it and I, you know, are we. Are we doing that? These are all good things to think about.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:38:12]:
Yeah. I appreciate the conversation. And, you know, it’s. It’s an ongoing. It’s just such an interesting journey as a parent because you, you never know if the thing that you do today is going to have the impact that you are intending.

Keith Kurlander [00:38:28]:
Oh, yeah. You know. Yeah. You never know what your kid’s going to do, but you still got to do something.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:38:34]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:38:35]:
In hopes that it’ll do something.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:38:36]:
It’s a powerful journey.

Keith Kurlander [00:38:37]:
All right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:38:38]:
For everyone.

Keith Kurlander [00:38:38]:
Yep. We look forward to connecting with you again on the next episode of the Higher Practice podcast, where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health.