Ketamine and Internal Family Systems – Nick Bruss – HPP153

[00:00:00] Thank you for joining us for the Higher Practice Podcast. I’m Dr. Will Vanderveer with Keith Kurlander, and this is the podcast where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health.

Welcome Nick to the show. Great to have. You. Thanks for having me. Will great to be here. So why don’t we start, um, I’ve been looking forward to this conversation for a long time ’cause I love wrapping with you about Internal Family Systems as a model. Um, some of our audience may not be familiar with this framework and so I would love for you to walk us through just a, a kind of an overall introduction to the model.

Yeah, sure thing. Internal family systems called IFS. It’s [00:01:00] a model of psychotherapy. It goes beyond that as we’ll discuss, but it’s a radically compassionate and non pathologizing model. It’s also very intuitive, and I think for those that know it or those that are gonna learn about it, they’re gonna get a sense of that, how it’s intuitive.

And a couple of the big pieces about this model is that at its center, at its core. It holds that we all have a true or core self. Uh, the model has it as like a capital S self that behind our conditioning, underneath any trauma or situations we grew up in, that there is this innate um, Compassionate, curious, clear, calm, sense or being, that is who we are. And this model works with a lot of parts. So it names parts as basically these different sub personalities and these different parts of us, they have their own history, have their own [00:02:00] worldview. They have their own needs and their, and often have different roles.

So as we get to know these parts of us. Then it tends to harmonize or it brings around more harmony in the system. Some of these parts have jobs and sometimes these jobs, um, interfere or, cause discomfort. We can help bring harmony and healing by addressing this whole system, both the self kind of behind the parts and, the parts themselves.

Yeah. When I first heard about IFS, it struck me that, it kind of reminds me in some ways of some of the training that I’ve done in shamanic, ways of understanding illness and this concept of soul retrieval or, losing. Parts of ourselves in a kind of a fragmentation from the impact of a traumatic event.

I’m curious, in the practice of IFS if that kind of resonates for you as a [00:03:00] practitioner, that when a traumatic event occurs, there can be a kind of a shattering or a fragmentation that results in these parts. Mm-hmm. It is the natural, nature of the mind to be subdivided into an indeterminate amount of parts.

Or again, calling parts sub personalities. We all can understand this. We have maybe a part of us that, wants to, try a new project and another part that says, Ooh, that’s a little too scary, or No, or we’ll procrastinate around that, a part that says, pump the brakes and the gas and the brakes, and so many different combinations, many different parts, active, and this is just the way, it is. And that as we turn our focus and have, a non-judgment, Way of looking at this, then we get to know these different parts. And to your point, it is often when there’s a level of extreme trauma or a really, [00:04:00] challenging experience that can. Kind of, basically, make the parts have more extreme roles.

So on the far end, TID or, you know, what used to be called multi Personality disorder, but essentially levels of disassociation are parts of us that are taking us out of the current moment in order to keep us safe. And at the extreme level of that, people can even lose track of time and they’re not aware that a parted is active or that parts are.
Interacting with other parts. So that is an extreme. but for most people it’s, parts that we can get to know and work with. We can also do that on the extreme ends, but I just wanna center the conversation around kind of the middle. Yeah. Thanks, that’s really helpful.

And. I think it might, at the risk of going too far into the weeds of, the technical nuances of IFS, I think it would be useful to name a few different types of parts for folks listening who may not be familiar with the [00:05:00] model. I wonder if you could walk us through. Managers, protectors, exiles, and so on.
Yeah, sure thing. Actually, I’d like make another pass at your last question. Well, I kind of jumped to the extreme. Um, even the regul

ar, um, person, um, likely has parts, and it’s, I found this in many years of psychotherapy and in my own practice, uh, personally have found that there have been parts of us that we have lost touch with.

And this is getting into your next question. So one of the kind of two types of parts is are exiles. These are really young, um, parts of us that hold like an extreme. I. Uh, belief, uh, about oneself. You think of core negative wounds, um, unlovable, um, shame, um, something’s not okay or something’s wrong with me.

Those are the burdens that these really young, [00:06:00] vulnerable parts hold and because they can be so intense, our system. So Internal Family Systems comes out of family systems, which is a, you know, systems thinking. We all have, we’re all a part of a system and this is really looking at the internal system. So these parts of the system, they’re called exiles.
’cause they’ve kind of been cast out, they’re too much, they’re overwhelming. So we’ve gotta get rid of ’em. Think of a really young person in a big world and having an overwhelming experience. Particularly, uh, an experience where they’re left alone. So example might just be like bullying, being bullied. And if they’re left alone with that, not able to understand that better, then that can become, um, held by a young part of them that’s like a belief that they’re not okay, or this is just how it is in the world.

The world’s unsafe, many other kind of parts, um, that can be, and we can talk more about what other exiles might be. So there’s exiles and then there’s protector parts, and there’s two kinds of [00:07:00] protector parts. Both types are working to keep the exiles at bay because those exiles come up and they overwhelm the system.

It’s gonna be too much, and our system kind of knows that. So these protectors, there’s the proactive ones, and then there’s the reactive ones. The proactive ones we call managers, they are working on your day-to-day, to have you safe, to have you, you know, um, interacting in the world. That’s a positive way to keep you safe.

Um, so they’re trying to protect you by handling your day-to-day life. Also protect your image. So examples, perfectionism. People pleasing, um, really like work, working super hard, really striving. These are all kind of ways we kind of manage proactively to keep these exiles at bay.

The reactive, we call these firefighters, so just like firefighters, they arrive when shit’s on fire and you know, they come in in emergency situations. Their emergency is when these exiles, the managers didn’t quite do it. [00:08:00] The world has a way of. You know, that doesn’t work and then the exiles start to bust through.

So, uh, kind of the classic example. You get the review at work and there’s all these glowing things, and then there’s this one thing that they said, oh, and this needs to really be better next year. Right. And so a firefighter, starts to feel the exile. Maybe shame, oh shit, I’m not good enough, or I better do something about this.

And panic starts to come up. So the, uh, firefighter might come in to douse the flames, numb out, put out those flames. It can do that by kind of getting really big and loud kind of rage is one form of a firefighter. Also disassociation, numbing out. Most of the addictions things we would do, um, obsessively tend to be, um, firefighter like activity.

Yeah. So managers, firefighters, protecting against the exiles and behind all that. Just to come back to the self, the capitalist self, which is untouched by [00:09:00] all of these. And we want that self energy to be the one, uh, captain’s chair and leading, um, your life. Hmm. Super interesting and, and, I find it really powerful to explore these parts in my life.

And of course, IFS you know, is also getting now, um, applied in psychedelic therapy. And I know that’s something you’ve been exploring now for a while, and I wanna get into that in a moment. But before we go there, um, I’m curious, uh. How, how did you come across this work, or how did you get into it in the first place?

Yeah. Uh, good fortune. Still fortunate. Um, it was 2012. I had already been a therapist for some time, and it was in a book, uh, the book, uh, wisdom and Compassion in Psychotherapy, and there was a chapter. I was talking about, um, essentially a non-dual practices.

And how [00:10:00] that. Kind of may show up in psychotherapy and it introduced, that was my introduction to Internal Family Systems. The author, um, honed in on, oh, by the way, there’s this model that’s existing that can really work with this innate self inside that can notice the content can actually relate to it, and it has, you know, better mental health outcomes for it.

So, good fortune of that in 2012. And then. I’ve been, I jumped on that training. There was really no one doing it in Southern California. Dick Schwartz, the founder, um, started up in Chicago and then he moved, um, to Boston. So jumped on that training, had to travel for that, and was been certified in practicing it for over 10 years now.

And really it’s, it gave not only me, but my clients some language and a way of interacting with their direct experience. in a way that they already sensed [00:11:00] what’s going on inside, but it really helped make their experience more tangible and then highlighted, oh, one example like overwhelm and if someone’s working with overwhelm and I.

And also I’m a good fortune of a lot of somatic therapies and practices, but we tend to just ground, ground, ground that which is useful. We want that. But this model is different and there’s an over. When overwhelm is up with myself or with a client, we can actually turn towards the overwhelm. And deal directly with it, ask for a little bit of space, relate to it, and that highlights that there’s a, a self here who’s now relating with overwhelm versus being just tossed around and, and, and kind of drowning in it.

So that was my, introduction to IFS and I’m super grateful. what was yours? kind of similar in a way. I was, approached by, maps, which, I know you’ve been involved with too. multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies back in, I think it was 20 11, [00:12:00] 20 12, around that time to, participate on a phase two study MDMA assisted therapy for chronic PTSD when I started getting trained in MDMA therapy.

One of the trainings was at Michael and offices in South Carolina. I remember going down there and Michael was talking about the protocol that they were teaching, and it was pretty clear that IFS principles were in the protocol. So I asked Michael about it and he said that he had studied with Dick, in Fs.

I thought, well, that’s interesting because. Way back when I was resident in psychiatry, my, wife at the time who I’m not with now, was doing a graduate degree at Naropa she had come across IFS and in 2001 had written a letter, I think it was a physical letter to Dick and said, Hey, will you take a look at my dissertation?

he was very generous and agreed to look at it and gave comments on it. so I’d heard about IFS way back in the day, and was familiar vaguely with the principles of it, but I [00:13:00] didn’t really get deeper into it until I was a member of that study team. I could see how MD MA therapy really blended well with IFS, on the effect of MDMA, it was pretty clear that you could see even people who had no background at all or language or you know, had not been suggested that, okay, you’re gonna see parts in yourself, nothing like that. Automatically just start talking about, wow, there I’m with the eye shades in, you know, music on, I’m encountering a part of myself that’s hidden in a cave, or, you know, in some part of my mind
Having a little background or language to support that curiosity that that person was bringing. It’s really helpful. so that was my kind of initiation into it. And in the meantime I was, for many years really deep in, ti Buddhist tradition. And I would say that there was this interesting bridge that happened for me between.

Buddhist practice, her meditation practice and because, if I had to sum up the benefits [00:14:00] of, 10 years of basically super deep intensive meditation practice, the capacity to witness my own experience and not get, as we would say in IFS blended with my experience, it’s probably the number one most helpful thing that ever happened from meditation practices.
Like I’m having an experience of. As you said, overwhelm or anger or whatever the thing is, rather than I’m angry or I’m overwhelmed. And it, it sounds like maybe a not so dramatic thing, but it, it changes everything. Yeah. Um. It does change everything. ’cause for me it goes from, I’m kind of just like hanging on and things are coming at me and like, I’m like flowing down a, river at times without any sense of like a rudder in the ground or, yeah.

Or um. Obviously, uh, for the degrees sense of safety, which of course is really nice in this human experience. Tap into bit a sense of [00:15:00] safety. Um, you mentioned Michael, and, um, yeah, he, he tracked, you may know this, he tracked over those early MDMA for PTSD studies and while IFS, as you said, wasn’t baked into the protocol, no one like learned IFS or about parts or that they might even notice these and 70%.

Of participants that got MDMA spontaneously spoke in kind of these terms. So I didn’t know that. That’s amazing. Oh yeah. That speaks to the, um, intuitive and kind of just a, a process that’s already here that this model I love that you said, um, it supports our curiosity and so when you can imagine there’s been times where just.

people that, if you were to say, wow, there’s this part of me and there’s this other part of me, some people might feel like that’s kind of scary. Like, people are gonna think I’m crazy. I think I’ve lost control that, whereas when [00:16:00] we can support that curiosity go, oh, that’s interesting, say more about that, or What’s it like if you engage that part, uh, in a conversation.
So I love your phrase of just supporting the curiosity and yeah, that model absolutely does that. And which is extra helpful when there’s the non-specific amplifier of psychedelics. Right. Well, that seems like a good segue to transition into the psychedelic conversation and, tell us about your work with ketamine and NIFS and, what you’re learning from that whole process in working with people.

Yeah. I’m so bummed to talk about it. I remember being asked years ago, like, what’s the hardest part of your job? And it, in a way, it remains that, I am highly aware of the potential benefit of these medicines. And the hardest part of my job is knowing that they’re not widely accessible.

That sucks. It hurts my heart. [00:17:00] It’s one of these things where we’ll look back and be like, wait, what? Yeah, they were locked up. it’s not that far from like, oh yeah, we have penicillin, but, For political reasons. Maybe we, well, is the research there. I think the research is there, but still locked up.

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Uh, that’s, a challenging thing, but I do have the good fortune of working with ketamine, uh, and actually also MDMA and now psilocybin, in Colorado and have been a part of, a couple FDA, phase three studies. That’s MDMA for PTSD and psilocybin for treatment resistant depression. And now more in Colorado.

I’m licensed in Colorado, New York, and Texas as well as California. the work with ketamine, I know you’ve worked, a lot with ketamine. I remember just during the maps training, one of our early talks connections and a walk, and yeah, you and the work you’re doing. I’ve [00:19:00] developed a model of, it’s essentially a three month container, so it’s outside of the regular kind of therapy, week to week, and this three month container, clients find real benefit of having a beginning, middle, and end. And the end doesn’t mean. Heal, enlightened. it’s all done. But rather they are more deeply rooted in their self capital s self and they have a suite of practices that they do to maintain that connection and grow their relationship with their parts, their younger parts that have been holding misbeliefs.

And then also just some parts that just come up with more energy and more playful dance, more, yeah, all kinds of good stuff. Comes out of it and in over this three months we do a typical intake, get a history at least one, two generations back to get to know the system in which they were kind of the soup they were raised in.

I meet with a integrative psychiatrist on my [00:20:00] team. They get prescribed ketamine. And then in the middle, after a number of preparation sessions, we do, the ketamine assisted sessions, which is, a load to medium dose. So a psycholytic dosing. I know you know what that means, but, psycholytic dosing is a medium, dose where people tend to stay upright and they stay in conversation.

So it’s, therapy continuing to go, although the medicine is altering, the client. psycholytic different than psychedelic dosing, which is a higher dose, tends to be more time spent in the symbolic space. it’s much more of an inner journey. And you can think, eye shades, headphones, and the preparation and the integration is more.

Towards the tail or the end of that experience. So back to the container, the three month, container with each ketamine assisted session, that’s about a two hour session. It’s followed by a non medicine integration session very next day. So we continue the work. [00:21:00] We’re working with the insights that came up and we’re very importantly grounding those insights into practices.

Things that they are taking notes on, ways they’re showing up for their younger parts conversations and meeting time, like we schedule meeting time with these parts that they’re working with over the next week until we meet again. And so we’ll do about six of those sessions followed by an integration session and then some, concluding sessions, after that to round out the three months.

Are you working with, sublingual ketamine or, yes. Yeah. So by and large sublingual, there are clients that are here in California or you meet them and have a medical professional there. And we use intramuscular, but mostly, sublingual, mostly this psycholytic dosing. I found that, there’s tons of benefits to the psychedelic dosing and sometimes we bring that in and mix that in.

Um, but the. psycholytic dosing, you’re kind of going, um, not as far out, [00:22:00] and there’s more easily and more practical to integrate that information As it arises. Yeah. I think that definitely up with my experience that, um, when we go. Perhaps too deep into a psychedelic state.

With Ketamine, it’s kinda like if the purpose of integration is to weave together insights from the dosing session into. Ordinary everyday life, then the gap between the session and everyday life is bigger when there’s a deeper psychedelic experience, it seems to me. Um, so it’s not to say that you can’t integrate those experiences, but it tends to be harder work to do that.
I really like there is a, I think you’d agree, a benefit for some at some time to have that respite to have and there might be something symbolic that comes, that really lands or fits and I agree. Often it’s, there’s a bigger gap to kind of help [00:23:00] integrate it and ground that in one’s life.

Um, though we agree there’s, it can be benefit to that too. Yeah. I’m glad you brought that up because, The, I’ve had, you know, when I was trained in ketamine, um, in 2017, the facilitator for my training, recommended to very high dose Im ketamine experiences on, back-to-back days. And I, I didn’t know much about dosing, so it ended up being, A very difficult, uh, integration process for me that took months to sort of re congeal. But the, there was a benefit, I would say, which is that the, um, the depth of the experience took me into the earliest days of my life, uh, in this lifetime, in this body. And, um, I don’t think I would’ve been able to get there if it was a lighter dose where I was more present.

Because, you know, so it’s almost like as long as you have like a, an umbilical cord to the present moment with a facilitator and you’re doing more processing, [00:24:00] it’s almost like a little bit harder to get down. Um, to the floor of the ocean maybe, and Get the really deep stuff. So Will, looking back at that experience, which sounds like a very big experience, these two high dose, um, ketamine experiences, what would you want for your past self or someone else?

Uh, who. Has those two, let’s just say that happens at least two high doses. What would you want, um, as a support to help integrate that? Hmm, good question. I think I would’ve, um, you know, with hindsight, if I could plan it differently, I definitely wouldn’t have been. driving from that experience to the airport to go to a professional meeting that day,
um, I think I would’ve wanted a few days off at least. Yeah. To, um, to do some of the work that you’re talking about doing with your clients of let’s have a scheduled meeting with these parts. and you know, part of it is, and I think curious if you see this with your clients, but for me it [00:25:00] feels like.

the dissociation between the parts is such that, or maybe you could say there’s a part that’s involved in the fuzz in between the parts. That is so habitual that if you don’t take action to really apply yourself to get the most out of integration pretty quickly after these sessions.

it can evaporate so fast. I mean, it’s really intense and I think that’s part of what would’ve been helpful for me to know ahead of time. I had had other psychedelic experiences previous to that that kind of oriented me to the need for integration. So I was aware that there would be, a need for that. But I was definitely over my head in, fragmentation and dissociation for a while after that. Mm-hmm. Yeah. we are built to do our best to survive. Yeah. And that includes, psychedelic experiences. So if a fuzz or a kind of comes on to. Try to, in a way, kind of hold us together.

That makes perfect sense, [00:26:00] honestly. Yeah. and to have the care around that, to kind of be met in that, of course not judged and even beyond that. Held and held in curiosity around that. because I agree. there’s something to these. Heroic journeys and experiences that we come out the other side.

Um. And also knowing that I don’t know about you, if you’ve ever found yourself just kind of gripping to get through a moment, uh, or with most, not necessarily a psychedelic moment. but psychedelics can help teach us about the system that’s already happening.

You know, how we are kind of go-to for Survival or just being okay, like we learn our protective system, which is really, really helpful. it’s a different class of medicine. Drugs that knock out and just numb us out, you know? And while ketamine is an anesthetic, we’re using it at sub [00:27:00] anesthetic levels so that we are aware of what’s arising and what we’re aware of is often how we might check out or move away or resist something, which is very important information.

Absolutely. You, we. Touching on something that I wanna underline. ’cause I think it’s really important that, one of the big advantages as I see it in my experience with IFS is the advantage of understanding that this is sort of part of the human experience to have parts of us rather than, you know, the way I was brought up.

and also the way I was taught in medical school and residency training as a psychiatrist, that there’s well, people over here and there’s sick people over here and, you know, patients and providers are separate groups. it’s a very pathological model as opposed to this notion that all people have parts.

there might be more extreme parts that have. become extreme based on the experiences that they’ve been through. but to have the view that, you know, this is just part [00:28:00] of the human experience to have parts, we can all talk about our parts mm-hmm. Is such a relief. It’s such a relief to not have these, artificial and I think really damaging categories of, you know, the well and the sick.

Oh, wow. I still believe you. I got goosebumps. You’ve taken me back to learning more about IFS early on, and I was able to create a little bit of space from a critical part of myself so I’m saying this model. reveals the compassion, self-compassion that is right here.

You don’t even have to cultivate, I’m all for practicing compassion, but this is kind of a constraint releasing model. when we create a little bit of space and we can ask these parts to literally just give us a little bit of space. And what I just remembered is one of those early moments I remember exactly where I was, that I asked a part to give me a little bit of space.

And then I could just feel myself more, I could feel my heart, I [00:29:00] could feel it’s kind of like taking off a heavy backpack after a while and you’ve acclimated to it. It’s like, whoa, this is potent. And of course, I can make such more heart and mind centered, um, decisions, choices when I am not burdened or have a little bit of space from that.

Yeah. I have a couple more questions, um, about your experience with IFS. I’m wondering, uh, first of all, have you ever, have you worked with couples with IFS or can you speak to what that’s like? Yeah, I have worked with couples and it is awesome, to work with couples. So there’s the. Traditional IFS training, which is individual specific.

Um, and then there’s this other, training thread, through the IFS model It’s called intimacy from the Inside Out. Hmm. Um, and what I love about the [00:30:00] IFS model with couples and why I think it’s really powerful is one of the main gifts is that It hones in on the responsibility, self responsibility, or each part of the partnership being responsible for their own parts.
And it is a huge game changer when we start to talk for our parts rather than from our parts. Yeah. So typically when we’re triggered, we go into blaming and shaming, whereas. Instead of that, if we can say, well, part of me is feeling like I want to push you away. Part of me is so pissed at you.

Part of me is really hurt right now. It’s very different than blaming, accusing of what the other person has just done to you and it really shifts the dynamic. To more of a collaborative, way of working. So I can be upset with you, my partner and I can name that this is a part of my experience, and then you and [00:31:00] I can actually be with this part.

It’s my responsibility to be with it and speak for it, not from it. Um, but I can actually use our relationship as a support to then meet this, uh, younger part and find out what it needs and wants in this moment and what’s kind of coming up for it. Super interesting. Yeah, I, I think it’s, um, it’s fascinating.

My wife, uh, Krista and I, uh. Have this agreement with each other that we’re, um, each individually responsible for our own internal injuries and traumas and so on. But we also agreed to take responsibility for each other’s younger parts. And so It sounds like it might be a little bit different from what you’re describing where, um, an individual in a partnership could rely on their relationship or rely on their partner to help them with their own parts, uh, as opposed to, you know, we adopted all these children when we got together and they’re all, they’re [00:32:00] all here with us.

I don’t know if that makes sense, but, um, I’m curious to do more. So, um, if, say, If you are triggered in the relationship and you are aware of a part coming up in you, what ideally, um, happens next? Yeah, so here’s how it would kind of play out and it, it does almost every day and for some reason that happens is in the kitchen a lot.

So I’m picturing myself in the kitchen saying, you know, my 10-year-old part who gets frozen and doesn’t know what to do is here right now She might say something like, oh, I love that little guy. You know, uh, let’s, what does he need right now? You know? And then I might reflect on, oh, you know, he, it would feel really good for him to have a hug with you right now, or something like that.

And then, uh, so it might play out that way, with, I don’t know if that answers your Oh, it does. And beautiful. at least where I’m coming from, we’re saying the same thing Oh, okay. It would be different than, you know, if you [00:33:00] weren’t speaking for that part. it would probably sound something like, she’s not doing something right, or why does she always do this?
You kind of put your arm around this younger part, turn towards your partner, your beloved, and Hey, this is what’s going on. And naturally there’s a pouring of, care and then you’ve got two selves working, to help. It makes a big difference for me to be on the receiving end of someone speaking.

On behalf of their party. It’s like healing. Yeah. So good. it’s much easier to feel that compassion for your partner’s parts rather than, feeling like you’re in the cross hairs of the Oh, yeah. Oh yes, for sure. And that’s what I do with couples.

I help slow that down. Um, help them see their partners self, help them connect with their own self, of course, and then work with, um, and kinda as you said, these adopted children, uh, in the room. And again, to the greatness [00:34:00] of. It’s innate. Like Dick Schwartz, again, the founder, he, he is said to work with some people that have kind of been outcast in society, from that have done some horrific crimes and he’s found that they actually know and they have no trace in their childhood of anything like attachment, parenting or any Right.
Good enough, you know, figures in their life and even. They have inside of them this innate ability to turn inside and they know what the young one needs. They know how to offer that. When the, the say the space is safe and supported, um, back to kind of supporting their curiosity, really, then it kind of unfolds.

I think that’s such an important point that you’re raising is, you know, because. At least I was trained that, you know, you, you internalize these. Um, the way that we develop compassion is by having [00:35:00] someone be compassionate toward us versus what you’re saying, which I think is really fascinating, is that the self with a capital s.

Um, is already there. It’s innate. Um, it’s not, um, it can’t be injured or, um, or tainted in any way. And it has a, has a timeless quality like, um, the qualities of awareness. You, when you spend some time meditating, you’ll, you’ll tap into this after a while and it’s a weird, um, almost impersonal experience, uh, of the existence of this, um, self.

Uh, so not self-generated, but um, self existing. I can’t really put words on it, but, um, preexisting. Mm-hmm. Compassion and care and, yeah. It’s fascinating. we don’t have to, um. Create it. and there might be parts that say, eh, we just don’t have it. Other people have it. I don’t have it. Or I have it for other people, but I don’t have it for myself.

Yeah. Oh honey, [00:36:00] it is a matter of, um. Practicing towards building an environment where you feel safe enough to explore freely or even a little bit more freely, and you will find, um. That your heart knows how to attend to each and every one of your parts, even the ones that have been nasty, gnarly, scary, terrifying, and I’m talking suicidal ideation.

It is a part when I remember in grad school I’m like, eh, I don’t know if I wanna, if I can work with people that are highly suicidal. and while I don’t. Seek it out or want it for anyone. I do not flinch anymore because I have now the experience, a lot of experience to back it up that we can actually turn right towards that suicidal part, the part that’s carrying the suicidal ideation and learn from it.

And when we learn from it and [00:37:00] it knows that my client is there and actually caring enough to turn towards it to get to know it, then. Something softens, then there’s more options. Then it doesn’t have to hit the eject button anymore. There’s other options and we’ve got that person self in the leadership role now.

the notion that, the depathologizing of suicidal thinking and, discovering the intelligence inside of the. Part that is suicidal is such a game changer. And it also reminds me of something, we talked about it for a moment earlier that, these protector parts sometimes, throw some substance at a problem.

Um, I was recently talking with Dick Schwartz about. An addiction center on the East coast somewhere that, where they’re using IFS to, to work with people with substance use disorders he said that they’re getting really interesting outcomes up there. So I want to, follow up on that ’cause it kind of, again, as long as we’re in battle between different parts of ourselves, we’re in a gridlock, then, you know, we’re not [00:38:00] transcending the level of the conflict.

I think it’s easy for everyone to see how this plays out on the outside Right. War nations, uh, gangs. You know, all of our different clubs, um, and it is happening on the inside and it’s spoiler alert. It’s why it’s happening on the outside. exactly. will I know that you were recently in, Costa Rica how was that? Incredible. I mean, it was my first time, taking a deep dive into IFS. I haven’t done the training, so, having the opportunity to watch demos and participate in one myself, it’s incredibly powerful. I will share that one thing that came up was this.

interesting layer. you spoke about taking a history of two layers of a person’s, genealogy or their ancestors. And we were talking about this concept of legacy burdens. I, had an experience in my demo of making contact with. Previous generations in my family and, [00:39:00] a series of things happened.

It was, probably too long to go into at this time, but what was really remarkable about that experience was how I felt afterward. I felt this incredibly, significant shift. And you talked about taking off a heavy backpack. That’s exactly how I felt after this demo was just like, wow. I feel so much more permission to be myself.

I’m not automatically in this, social, strategic self or this mask that I find myself wearing. and that has continued. Um, and I’ve been sitting with it and sitting with parts and. I was really struck by the idea of IFS as a life practice, as something that, you know, having a meeting with my parts on a daily basis is something that I’m doing after that retreat.
Mm-hmm. And it’s been really powerful. it, it’s helping me even in very subtle ways, not be as. blended with different parts of me. Hmm. Beautiful. if I may, we just wanna capture something here, it maps to a psychedelic experience.

Try to hang on to the afterglow. [00:40:00] Wow, I feel so light. I feel so good. And then we might even start to kind of clean that, or you haven’t experienced this yet. There’ll be perhaps for you a sense it’s been for me many times the sense of like, ugh. Figured it out, or as I feel right now, there’s no going back to that small little box.

Yeah. You know, whatever those parts were that were clean, famous, last words. Oh, the end is near when I hear that. but whether it’s a. Moment in therapy that feels a lot of relief or a psychedelic moment. There’s such juice and this is speaking to the integration and where I kind of hope the field goes more, which is shifting the focus off the medicine and towards the integration and preparation, So when you notice like, oh, I don’t have quite the same glow. Okay, so that’s what’s happening now. And then notice that nuance of what feels a little bit different. Oh, I just noticed that, you know, I was working out or cold plunging for a number of [00:41:00] days, but now I’m like, eh, that feels a little uncomfortable.

I’m gonna shy away from that. or, you know, I felt the joy come up. And I felt gratitude for a friend. And for those first couple days or weeks I was sending the message saying, oh, I love having you in my life. Thank you. Um, but now it’s like, oh, I’m a little busy.

I’ll tell ’em when I see ’em, Right. And so, same with a psychedelic experience. As the medicine wears off and we notice most of our system, our parts kind of come back online. That’s a really juicy time. To observe, to notice, not to kind of build walls or, bang our fists at why are you back, but rather to learn.

Um, yeah. the phrase that, Dick Schwartz was using was Trailhead. looking for trail heads. And I love that because it’s so, easy to grasp, these subtle indicators. that curiosity is warranted. And, you know, in a fast-paced, chaotic, kind of overwhelming, stressful [00:42:00] world that we live in right now, it’s definitely counterintuitive.

It goes against the grain Not accelerate when things get challenging, but to, to decelerate and, pause and look and taste and reflect. And for your listeners, a trailhead is something that is like a glimpse of a pattern. It’s like, oh, there’s something here that needs my attention.

you can set an intention to be aware of something, or you can take a moment. We could even just take a minute right here. And if you’re willing, if you’re not driving, you can close your eyes and feel your next few breaths. And then take the biggest breath you’ve taken yet today and now inside. Ask yourself what needs my attention. That’s the question I’m gonna add to it, but you don’t have to figure anything out, I’ll ask the question again and then just listen. Listen, watch, feel similar to if you were trying to hear something outside the room that you’re in or far away, you’d have to get quiet and still.

So we’ll try that inside. So taking the next, the [00:43:00] most gentle breath you’ve taken all month. And then ask inside what needs my attention right now?
You might hear words, you might feel a emotion, there might be a sensation, and just take a note of that and you’d be like, oh, okay. And if nothing came, that’s okay too. It’s a little practice you might try from time to time to see what’s needing your attention because most things I’ve found personally start off as a whisper and then they can get pretty loud.
Yeah. Better to listen earlier than later in general. Yeah, if possible. Yeah. Nick, this has been really, really fun. I really appreciate you and, um, our ongoing connection and exploration of being human together. Yeah. It’s rich at you. Will appreciate you. Yeah. Thank you for joining us. And, um, is there anything else you’d like to add or, um, let people know [00:44:00] where to find you or.

The, um, I’ve got some things, uh, in the works, um, some workshops, and a book, uh, next year. Um, all right. more on that to come, but to find me, uh, my website is a. Practice of freedom.com and my Instagram is Dr. Nick B-R-U-S-S, and uh, on LinkedIn as well. Um, and yeah, thanks again for having me.

I appreciate you, I appreciate our relationship and inviting me on. Right. Thanks Nick. I look forward to your book and, uh, hopefully we’ll. Be able to get you back in here to talk more about that as it takes shape. You got it. Sure thing. We look forward to connecting with you again on the next episode of the Higher Practice Podcast, where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental [00:45:00] health.