Turning Insights Into Action In Psychedelic Therapy – Keith Kurlander & Dr. Will Van Derveer – HPP149

Keith Kurlander [00:00:11]:
Thank you for joining us for the Higher Practice podcast. I’m Keith Curlander with Dr. Will Vandervere and this is the podcast where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health. Hey Keith, what’s up?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:28]:
What do you want me to talk about today?

Keith Kurlander [00:00:30]:
Well, I, I don’t. No. Are we talking, we’re talking psychedelics today?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:35]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:38]:
I’m a little rusty. I haven’t had, you know, psychedelic therapy or anything in a long time, but my. So I’m a little rusty. But I’m obviously I’ve got a lot. We’re talking more of a integration topic today and done plenty of that for people.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:58]:
Yeah, yeah. Plus your middle name is Rusty.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:04]:
Yeah, Ross, Rusty. I live Rusty.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:12]:
Well, they call me the Tin man. So I guess we’re both in need of some help in that regard.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:17]:
But Reese.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:18]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:20]:
So insights into action.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:23]:
Yeah. So we wanted to focus today on a phenomenon that is all too common, which is people having really mind blowing, earth shattering insights during a dosing session and then having that experience become a trinket gathering dust on a bookshelf somewhere without any change in their life. Yeah, this happens a lot.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:51]:
Happens a lot. Yeah. I mean, let’s start with why does that happen? Yeah, why do, why do people have such big aha moments? They’re aha moments. Right. Of like, oh, this is what I need to do. This is what I need to do differently. This is where I need to shift. This is. I see this pattern in myself and then sometimes they don’t even do anything about it. Maybe they make a little headway for a couple days or whatever. But this is common where people are like, not much happens after that. So what’s that about?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:28]:
So let’s start, maybe we can start with a couple examples. I mean, one thing I see a lot in folks that I’ve been around, whether they’re clients or friends, going through experiences is a common one, is, you know, noticing that the reason why I am in so much pain in relationships in my life is I’m always a doormat and I don’t have any boundaries. I’m never going to let someone to take advantage of me again or something like that. And you can. Sometimes you, a person after a session will say, you know, they make these sweeping claims like I’m never going to do this ever again or yeah, I’m.

Keith Kurlander [00:03:16]:
Calling my mom tomorrow. Yeah, I’m telling her to business.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:03:22]:
That’s a good one. Might be a long conversation, maybe a lot of business to cover and inevitably it’s Kind of like one of those New Year’s resolutions where you’re like, I’m going to go to the gym every day from now on. And it just usually fails and gets forgotten. What do you think is happening there? Why are people struggling to put insight into habits or, you know, behavior change? What’s going on there?

Keith Kurlander [00:04:09]:
One thing I would wonder is, is it being supported by a facilitator to actually turn, help the person turn cognitive ideas and realizations into behavior? Is anyone like remembering the focus on that? You know, so that’s one question I wonder sometimes about this issue. The other thing which I think is real is behavior change is actually hard, you know, even confronting, let’s say your partner or a friend who’s, you know, in your example, walking all over you and this and that. And I think what’s going on is that there’s sometimes a surge of self esteem during the session. Like this is what it feels like to feel empowered. I feel myself, I feel, feel strong enough to do this. And there can be a little rebound where that sort of goes away in this example. And so this is where integration insights into action is really key because you’re not going to necessarily feel as big and strong and proud and empowered as you felt in that moment of the epiphany of like, I’ve got this, I’ve got my own back forever.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:05:38]:
You know, I keep thinking about, there’s a, there’s a type of memory that allows us to automate actions. And it’s called procedural memory, you know, and it’s an unconscious memory. So how to ride a bike, if you know how to ride a bike, that’s procedural memory. And I think that the way I think the way we live in the world, the way that we conduct our lives, the way that we think about ourselves and what’s possible for our lives is encoded in the form of procedural memory. It’s. It’s automatic, it’s unconscious. And so even having a nurse driving.

Keith Kurlander [00:06:19]:
Down the road and an hour later I forgot that I was driving the whole time like that.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:06:26]:
That’s a good, that’s a good Keith example. Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly. So the, the person who comes out of a dosing session with massive insight hasn’t yet shifted their identity, their way of being in the world, their automatic way of navigating, driving the car without realizing you’re way past the exit, right? Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:06:51]:
It comes right back online.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:06:52]:
It comes right back online.

Keith Kurlander [00:06:54]:
But the insight’s still there.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:06:56]:
Yes.

Keith Kurlander [00:06:58]:
That’s why we’re talking about Turning insights into action.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:00]:
Exactly.

Keith Kurlander [00:07:01]:
Yeah. Because the insight doesn’t go away, but the procedural memory doesn’t go away either. Right away, you have to do some work.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:10]:
That’s right, exactly. So it’s part of your. We. We sometimes have talked about the default mode network. It’s part of your default mode to act this way in the world, even in the face of massive insight.

Keith Kurlander [00:07:25]:
Yeah, yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:28]:
So this is the crucial reason why we emphasize integration so much in our work and what we teach is that an. An insight that happens that ends up on the shelf is. Is that really why even do that?

Keith Kurlander [00:07:47]:
What.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:48]:
What’s. What’s. Ultimately, if you’re after change, lasting change in your life, it probably doesn’t help to fill your trophy case with experiences with psychedelics that were wild. You know, hey, let me tell you a story about this time I decided to stop eating sugar, you know. But you’re not eating sugar.

Keith Kurlander [00:08:12]:
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that. I mean, I think there’s two sides. One is, like, I think common, where some of these just go on the shelf. And you’re wrestling with that thing for a long time. You keep trying to get it off the shelf, whether it’s through psychedelic sessions, and you’re like, I can’t figure it out. Right. Like, I can’t keep it off the shelf. There’s kind of that process, too. And then there’s the type of insights, which is also a thing, especially for people who don’t. Haven’t done a lot of psychedelics, and they’re really just. They’re doing a psychedelic therapy series. Maybe they’ve done it once, maybe it’s their second time. And, like, they have these big insights that they actually have never had before. And then they just put it on the shelf and it kind of fades. And they’re not even wrestling with it again. You know, that’s kind of a different thing.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:09:06]:
Sure.

Keith Kurlander [00:09:06]:
I think there’s kind of like two things here. Right. And, you know, I think that one of the key pieces with these insights. And we’ll. Let’s keep sticking with your example. I think it’s a really good example because I too, have seen that a lot in integration with people over the years when I was really, you know, practicing as a therapist and people were coming to me for integration, like, that’s a big one. Like, I’m ready to, you know, be empowered and confront some people. I have some things I need to say, and I don’t want to be people walking all over me kind of thing, you know, that’s that’s definitely one of them, right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:09:45]:
Sure. Or I’m ready to leave this abusive. I’ve discovered that I’ve been a victim of abuse in my marriage. Yeah, I just figured it out. I’m going to leave. Or the job.

Keith Kurlander [00:09:56]:
Totally.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:09:57]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:09:57]:
Or the job. They are treating me right. People don’t treat me right there. And let’s say so. So the first thing I think that’s important to do is reality checking. Like, is this what is actually happening in a person’s life? Like, let’s help them look at it. Let’s make sure it’s happening. And it might be happening. Right. Probably just happened.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:10:21]:
Probably.

Keith Kurlander [00:10:21]:
But I do think it’s important to just make sure that. Because there are other things going on here. Like when people have insights and it’s, you know, they struggle with integrating them. I just want to make sure what they’re perceiving really matches. Like, they’re being, like what they’re actually is happening to them. So I tend to just kind of check it out with them. Let’s just explore how is this happening? Who’s, you know, what’s being said to you? What’s your work like? Like, yeah, that sounds like you’re struggling standing up for yourself, having your own back there. Right. So you get there. Let’s say you get there. Right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:11:00]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:11:03]:
I tend to like to also let people know that some hard work now begins. You had a big insight and, you know, keeping this in the front of the gestalt is going to be some work ahead here because it will want to fade. You have that procedural memory, right. You have your default mode.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:11:29]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:11:30]:
So I think there’s just a little, like, let’s. Let’s just talk about what we’re dealing with here together. This is a big insight. I want to help you with it. How do you. How do you start to work with these things?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:11:42]:
Well, it. As you’re speaking, it. I’m realizing it’s kind of tricky to enter that way because oftentimes people are inflated about the insight. Right. They’re. They’re excited about it. It’s. It’s not a bad thing, but you.

Keith Kurlander [00:12:00]:
Mean like right after the session or something?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:12:01]:
Yeah, right after the session.

Keith Kurlander [00:12:02]:
Couple days.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:12:03]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:12:04]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:12:05]:
And they might perceive anyone who challenges their insight or their inflation as a naysayer or, you know, someone who’s not on board with how excited they are, which, you know, is not where you’re coming from with the way you’re talking. But it is challenging to help people who haven’t been Sort of pre educated or warned or explained, oriented to the process that the insights might be very significant. And the work to integrate those insights is also going to be significant. People tend to, who are naive in working with psychedelics tend to think that the insight is going to be durable without working to change their life and get those essential reps in the gym.

Keith Kurlander [00:12:59]:
Yeah, and it’s not even necessarily always naive. I mean, you could come out of a session, you’ve done 50 sessions, you’re a psychonaut. And maybe that’s not a psychonaut, but you come out and you’re like, I’m a new person. And then three days later I’m not a new person, I’m the same person. So I think, I think it’s true. Like you really can come out of these sessions. You know, it just feels so real, the new experience and idea and it has so much truth in it. But it does take work to weave that into your life.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:13:38]:
Well, I think it’s important also what you just called out is someone who keeps going back, you know, dozens and dozens and hundreds, thousands of times to psychedelics, perhaps under the illusion that all I need is more psychedelics and then these desired changes will happen. You know, I just need more sessions as opposed to, wait a second, I already got the insight and now I just need to go change my life.

Keith Kurlander [00:14:08]:
Right. I actually think that’s a good point. You’re, you’re bringing up is another aspect of turning insights into action. Right. Which is like I need another session to bring that experience back into me, to awaken it again. I don’t typically see it going that well personally with people with integration where they, that’s what they’re trying to do. It’s like, because they’re really, they’re really trying to then cult. They’re really trying to stimulate a state.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:14:37]:
I think typically chasing after states.

Keith Kurlander [00:14:40]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And this state is relevant to trying to turn it into a trait. Right. Like it’s relevant to have the experience.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:14:50]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:14:51]:
And that’s why it’s so relevant. They had this big aha. Like I can’t believe I didn’t realize, like I’ve really have and have my own back as one of the experiences. I really want to shift this. I’m excited to shift this. It’s like, great, let’s go, let’s. The work begins. Yeah, the work begins. Imagine the impact you could have with your clients when you’re able to practice the most cutting edge modality available today. Psychedelic therapy is the future of mental health care. And the Integrative Psychiatry Institute will empower you with the tools and knowledge you need to master this exciting modality. IPI’s comprehensive training and in person experiential practicums will elevate you personally and professionally. This in depth curriculum is the gold standard certification in the field. When you join, you will step into a global community of thousands of innovative colleagues who are integrating psychedelic therapy into their practices. Visit psychiatryinstitute.com Reply where you will find all the information you need about IPI’s training. And when you visit psychiatryinstitute.com apply you’ll also receive IPI’s free ebook Getting Started with Psychedelic Therapy so you can get the most up to date information immediately. Again, that’s psychiatryinstitute.com apply to learn more about the training and to get your free ebook.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:16:18]:
You and I were talking before this recording about a little bit about habit formation and the challenges involved in actually doing the work that you’re describing. You know, changing very deeply ingrained habits. I mean, I think one of the things, first thing I want to say about it is the way that we became who we were. As one of my therapists would say, you came to it honestly. In other words, it’s a health. It’s a natural response to the exact kind of environment that you faced when you were younger, when these habits became real for you. So for example, if you’re a person who, let’s just say in the metaphor, the doormat person who doesn’t stand up for themselves, who maybe goes along to get along, has that style, there’s a good reason why you develop that style. And so there one way to describe it is that there was a survival benefit for you. You got things that you wanted, whether it was safety, security, not feeling judged, not, you know, creating conflictual, scary situations interpersonally and so on that drive the persistence of that pattern in your life, even if you don’t have the same environment that you grew up in. Right. The same totally social threats and so on. So I say that just to underline what you’re talking about is that this default mode is so strong not because it’s trying to screw you over, but simply because it came about for a reason.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:08]:
Yeah, it’s the evolutionary need is important. Like the what it’s doing is it’s trying to help you avoid similar situations that have happened before. Which is one of the. Which is one of the points of memory.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:22]:
Right? Exactly.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:23]:
It’s for adaptation. Right. Like why go through that again, that kind of sucked.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:28]:
Exactly.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:29]:
You know, and then, but then we have a hard time. This is where behavior change gets hard. Right, Right. It’s like we have an insight that’s like, well, actually this way of being isn’t allowing me to live into who I full fully am.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:47]:
Exactly.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:48]:
It was helpful back then, but it’s not allowing me to be who I fully am because I couldn’t be fully who I was then.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:57]:
Exactly. And then. And that’s one of the most beautiful and potentially powerful insights that you can have when your default mode is melted away for a while on a psychedelic is to see the drawbacks that you cannot see in ordinary consciousness for the adaptation.

Keith Kurlander [00:19:15]:
It literally melts it away. It’s like acid melts the wall. That’s what it does.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:19:22]:
Exactly. So. So seeing the drawbacks is not the same thing as changing your life, but it’s the beginning, it can be the beginning of that, which is so exciting.

Keith Kurlander [00:19:33]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:19:35]:
So knowing that this is challenging, this process, how do you like to support people who are navigating that terrain?

Keith Kurlander [00:19:48]:
I mean, you know, I’m a meaning guy. Like I, I always love to go to meaning. Just as one of my, you know, when I look at like behavior change modalities, you know, cognitive behavioral stuff or whatever it is, behavior modification stuff. And you know, there’s different, there’s different sort of eras in that stuff. And like one thing is, you know, you can work with the brain and how the brain develops behavior and do some cool stuff there with behavior modification. That’s one way. It’s just not that fun for me or interesting. And I actually think it’s got its own limitations. Obviously some of these bigger personality based ego defense structures, it doesn’t work that well by mine because our identities are so wrapped up in it, you know, And I like to go to meaning and really go to more like values based change. Right. Like looking at behavior, which is more like models that we see in like, you know, what’s the motivation behind behavior that isn’t impulse and instinct? Right. Like that’s, that’s a whole system that, you know, behavior modification works well in. But then there’s, you know, a lot of other things came out of, you know, human motivational theory and stuff. And I tend to like those models and to work with. They’re more fun for me and I think they’re more fun for most people and they can, I think for some of these larger kind of ubiquitous issues that are really like default mode network, but personality stuff and identity, like, I think. So I go to meaning, like Helping people develop, see why it’s so valuable to them to make these changes and really, really working on that, you know, really increasing the value on this change and you know, are they going to feel more valuable as a person if they make these changes and helping them with that process. So I like to do a lot of values based, you know, change when it comes to behavior personally. Yeah, style. Every person out there who helps people has their own styles with these things.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:22:16]:
Right. And there’s no right way to do it.

Keith Kurlander [00:22:18]:
No.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:22:20]:
But I think that over the course of years and you know, sharing an office together and seeing shared clients together for many years, I think you and I have tended to work with people with more entrenched deeper.

Keith Kurlander [00:22:34]:
Yeah, we had some doozies and people suffer. Right. I mean people get into some very hard places.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:22:42]:
For sure. For sure. But I think it’s a, I think it’s a general truism, whether you’re talking about more severe entrenched conditions or milder conditions, that it’s pretty rare. At least I think I can safely say that I’ve very rare. I could count on one hand people who I’ve met who seem to have come from a background where they were supported to be authentically who they really are inside of their. It’s very rare, deepest inspiration inside of their most natural occurring value system for them. What’s important to them.

Keith Kurlander [00:23:23]:
I mean, let’s just. I mean that’s just sad, but it’s so true that like it’s so rare.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:29]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:23:30]:
I mean, and I don’t know why we got ourselves into this place and it’s not everywhere in the world, but a lot of places I visited, I feel that, you know, it’s not like the whole world has a right, but we don’t in this country, like there’s a lot of like not being able to help people really be who they are. And it’s, it’s sad, but here we are. Most people don’t really get that deeply and that’s what they’re dealing with.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:59]:
Yeah. I mean, outside of your kids and the children of a handful of other close and friends that we have, I just don’t even know parents who are capable even or aware enough to be trying to support that fully.

Keith Kurlander [00:24:19]:
Yeah, I mean, I would imagine they are out there, you know, if they’ve done a lot of personal work for themselves. Right. Like for sure. A lot of people who listen to this show have done a lot of personal work and they’re really trying at it. And we could just say A lot of the people we’ve worked with, a lot of people we know as friends, a lot of, even the younger people I work with just aren’t getting it. Even, you know, younger people still are not getting it that I’ve worked with.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:50]:
Well, and even if you care, like, you know, speaking from my own personal experience as a parent about your kids authenticity, you’re still going to impose your belief system, your values, all the things.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:05]:
Well, yeah, then there’s whether your kid feels like they got it, even if you think you gave it to them.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:10]:
You might.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:13]:
Be in, you know, you’re like, I did it. And like they’re like they’re pulling you into therapy when they’re 25, yelling at you, right? Get in and see me. You put your shit on me.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:25]:
Right, right.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:25]:
We can’t stop that. I mean it’s, it’s a complex system here we’re in and.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:30]:
Oh, for sure.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:31]:
But obviously, I mean, anyway, tangent here, but I think we’re trying to help.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:39]:
Secure functioning helps. But you’re still going to have a personality and it’s still going to have, it’s going to have strategies inside of it that are defensive and that hold you back in certain ways or need to be changed as you get older. So, so no matter what the cause is or you know, how significant that patterning is, you’re, you’re, you’re probably going to get to a point in your life where that whatever those strategies happen don’t work as well for you anymore and you need to change them.

Keith Kurlander [00:26:07]:
I need to change them. So here we are. So I said values based change, which, you know, some people are not familiar with what that means, obviously. And it’s really about starting to examine what’s meaningful to you and linking that meaning to why you would make this change. If you don’t have reasons, one reason and an epiphany is great, but you haven’t unpacked the reasons typically. And I think that’s one of the reasons this thing usually goes on the shelf. It’s like you could have the moment where it all makes sense, but until you unpack, well, why would you go through the trouble of actually doing this? Because it’s not going to be easy. Like outside of the idea, it’s not going to be simple to start confronting people this and that. And I don’t like conflict, I don’t like confronting people. So like, so, you know, that’s where I, I like really unpacking the reasons, like why is this so important to you and how does this help you get more of what you want in the world? Let’s go through it. Let’s. Let’s come up with a hundred reasons, you know, not just the idea that it’s a good idea. And when you have the idea you felt like typically on psychedelics too, what’s really cool is you can get a window into what it feels like as if you’re already that person.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:27:29]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:27:29]:
And that brings us into another aspect of this, I think.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:27:33]:
Right, Absolutely. I mean, it’s sort of like the spectrum of lived human experience from inspiration. Right. And authenticity, expression, freedom of expression, all the way down to. And we’ve all been there, the black and white thinking, the defensive posturing, the excuses, the negative thinking, and so on and so on. So we, I think, have to embrace. Sometimes we have to embrace an idea that we haven’t experienced fully except in that moment that you’re talking about. Maybe we have rarely experienced that moment outside of that psychedelic insight where we felt very inspired and on mission, on task with who we’re meant to be, whatever that is. And it’s a unique fingerprint for each person. There’s no two people who have the same set of values. But if it’s something that we haven’t experienced much, it can be hard to trust after a psychedelic experience. So this is another thing that comes up a lot in integration is like, oh, that was just a drug induced, you know, manic moment, you know, not clinical mania. But it was like, oh, I got really inflated and unbalanced in my mind and that. Forget about that. You know, it’s. Life is hard. This is. I’m back to. I’m back to reality here. Yeah, carry on.

Keith Kurlander [00:29:05]:
What do you do with that?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:07]:
Well, I tend to work with that within a parts work framework of like, okay, cool, let’s. Let’s talk. Let’s see if we can get this part of you that’s dismissing the experience. You just had to have a conversation with the part of you that experienced that during the dosing session and see what happens. And oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes, we find out that the one who’s dismissing the insight is protecting. Comes with a positive intention of protecting you from disappointment or risk of harm or whatever the things are that you have to face to change your life, to change your behavior. Automatic patterns.

Keith Kurlander [00:29:54]:
Yep. That’s great. Yeah. And people can go journal to do those parts works too, when they’re not in session. Really keep it going, you know, That’s a great method also.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:08]:
Absolutely. Artwork can also be A really useful medium of exploring.

Keith Kurlander [00:30:15]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:15]:
The self who we are.

Keith Kurlander [00:30:17]:
Yeah, totally. You could talk to yourself in the car like I do. You’re going to do it. You got it.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:32]:
I often feel like for me, there’s an obscure. Well, not so obscure, but there’s a movie called Cloud Atlas where Tom Hanks. Oh, yeah. Has this sort of evil voice on his shoulder that is played by the same actor who’s in the Matrix with the big teeth. I can’t remember his name, but he’s got a really bad, nasty voice. And he talks to Tom Hank in his ears, says, don’t trust. You should keep using that voice. For the rest, can’t trust. And Haley Berry is trying to help out Tom Hanks. She’s an alien coming to help him in his drive and he can’t.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:14]:
How does she sound? Everything’s going to be okay.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:24]:
So anyway, hearts work. Pretty useful.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:27]:
Hearts work. Yeah, yeah. Very useful. Yeah. And I think, you know, there are other. There’s plenty of other methods and, you know, some for some people, CBT is great and there’s lots of ways to do this stuff. Right. But I think the key. I think the key piece is like, you know, getting in the game after getting back in the game.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:57]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:58]:
Well, you got another game to play here after the big day.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:32:03]:
Absolutely. I mean, there are two more things I’d say about it. One is the power of accountability in relationships. So in our lives as friends, you and I hold each other accountable for changes that. Or commitments that we make. And we have a little inner circle of dudes who do that for each other.

Keith Kurlander [00:32:26]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:32:27]:
And, you know, it’s a little bit maybe on the masculine side of the spectrum. Like my wife says, I wouldn’t want to be in that group of how you challenge each other, but it really helps me, um, to stay on track with behaviors and changes that I want to make in my life.

Keith Kurlander [00:32:47]:
Yeah. It’s almost like an encounter group of some kind. You know, like. Yeah, there’s a lot of encountering of stuff that’s. That we find helpful.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:32:56]:
Yeah, I mean, it’s the. It’s the whole principle of, like, much easier to go to the gym if you’re meeting your friend to work out together than to mobilize the motivation by yourself.

Keith Kurlander [00:33:09]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:10]:
And then the second thing I wanted to say is, you know, the work. I do appreciate the work of James Clear, and I think it’s worth mentioning his name and, you know, his book, Atomic Habits here, because it’s so well researched and there’s just interesting insights about developing new habits in there and how to stack habits and the role of identity and habit formation, which is what you and I are talking about here.

Keith Kurlander [00:33:43]:
Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s a good one. It’s a good book.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:49]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:33:50]:
Yeah. Any other last pieces before we close the shop down?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:00]:
Well, I think that’s pretty complete. For me. It’s an. It’s a long. It’s a long journey. Life and change and it’s.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:09]:
It’s journey. Love the insights.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:13]:
Hopefully we’re continuing to learn and grow throughout our lifetime.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:16]:
Right, Totally enjoy those insights. And then, you know, chop wood, carry water after them and.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:25]:
Yeah, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:27]:
All right, let’s close. All right, let’s close it down.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:30]:
See you next time.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:32]:
Bye. We look forward to connecting with you again on the next episode of the Higher Practice podcast, where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health.