Mind Under Pressure: How to Recognize Stress and Reset Your Nervous System – Keith Kurlander & Dr. Will Van Derveer – HPP 148

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:06]:
Thank you for joining us for the Higher practice podcast. I’m Dr. Will Van Derveer with Keith Kurlander, and this is the podcast where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health. Hey, Keith.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:21]:
What’s up?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:22]:
How’s. How’s your stress levels today?

Keith Kurlander [00:00:25]:
Stressed. About this episode. We’re talking about stress and it stresses me out.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:33]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:35]:
Every time I hear the word stress, I realize I’m stressed. Now my stress levels are actually pretty low today.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:42]:
Oh, okay.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:43]:
In the moment. But as we talk about this, my stress levels will increase.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:47]:
Usually have like a real time heart rate variability among.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:52]:
Yeah, that would be fun.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:53]:
Well, okay, so let’s talk about it. Why don’t we take it from the top with.

Keith Kurlander [00:00:57]:
Why don’t we talk about. Why are we talking about stress?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:59]:
Yeah, good idea.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:01]:
Why are we talking about stress?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:02]:
Well, it seems like the level of stress is going up for folks. I’m feeling stressed. I mean, for one thing, there’s a big transition happening with a new governor. I mean, a new. A new government. And that brings up a lot of questions.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:19]:
Right? Yeah. The election and now a new government coming in. The change of government is always a stressful point for many people. So that’s one piece. So there’s more of like a larger existential stressor right now.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:34]:
Yeah, there’s that going on. And then there’s also the threat of any widening war in the Middle East. I mean, that’s on my mind.

Keith Kurlander [00:01:44]:
Right, Me too. Well, and just what’s going on in the Middle east is actually very stressful. Oh, you’ve got the Ukraine, you’ve got war, you’ve got. So there’s, there’s wars that are particularly stressful right now. There’s inflation that has stressed a lot of people.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:00]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:02:01]:
So there’s a number of things happening that one could get stressed by plenty.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:06]:
Of reasons right now. Yep, yep.

Keith Kurlander [00:02:09]:
And today is about working with stress. Because stress is. Well, let’s talk about what is stress? What are we even talking about? Let’s. Let’s first define what we’re talking about.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:18]:
Well, this reminds me of conversations you and I have about the word trauma sometimes where the conventional definition is like, trauma is something that happens like an event versus the way we like to talk about it is a pattern inside your body, a pattern in your nervous system.

Keith Kurlander [00:02:34]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:36]:
Thinking about stress that way as a pattern. But obviously there are triggers of stress that are real, that we face, challenges that we face.

Keith Kurlander [00:02:45]:
Yeah. So we’re talking about the process in the body that really includes like a physiological and Psychological reaction in your body, response in your body. That includes certain things, right. That when we’re in a stress response, it could be muscle tension. Your breath rate might be a little different. You might have more adrenaline. Right. You might be more irritable, more of a. Well, more anxious. Your mind might be operating in a heightened state. That’s what we’re talking about, stress from now. Now, some people might go, well, that’s me all the time. Well, okay, maybe, but you gotta work with that too, I guess. But I think that’s not what we’re referring to. We’re not talking about a state that people live in their whole life. That’s kind of a different thing, right? Is it?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:03:35]:
I mean, I certainly can relate to people who feel that way, that they live in a chronic state of tension. And I can relate to that. I, my, my physiologic markers would support that in some ways as well. We can get into that later, but.

Keith Kurlander [00:03:53]:
Well, yeah, I guess that’s true. So, so you could have a baseline of stress that. I guess that’s what you were saying here. You could actually have a baseline of stress and not have a baseline of. What would be the opposite? Relaxation. What would be the opposite?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:04:07]:
Well, I think we’re talking about, I think we need to talk about EU stress. EU stress, which means like the kind of stress that helps you grow. The kind of stress that, you know, if you don’t stress a muscle by walking and using that muscle, then it’s going to atrophy. Right. So there’s a certain sweet spot or window of tolerance where stress is critical to experience, to develop resilience, to stay strong, flexible, so on. That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about a kind of chronic, switched on chronic in the sense that it’s not in response to an acute threat in your environment.

Keith Kurlander [00:04:46]:
Yeah, that’s right. Yeah. So we’re talking about a chronic heightened state of arousal on some level. Sometimes it can lead to a collapse of energy. But we’re talking about the stress response being a kind of that chronic state of heightened arousal. And what you’re, what you’re sort of breaking out is the difference between like this positive stress, sometimes called eustress, versus maybe it’s called distress. Right? You’re in distress, which is stress that feels not productive inside of you.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:05:18]:
Yeah, exactly. The origins of these experiences have protective mechanisms in them. Right? You experience a threat in your environment, you have a dump of stress hormones, you respond to the threat, and then the hormones get metabolized and you go back into a relatively speaking, more calm, relaxed, open, creative state.

Keith Kurlander [00:05:40]:
Yeah. So, okay, so stress being this heightened psychological physiological response, generally people know what that is. Many people feel stressed. Some people feel stressed all the time. Right. Some people go through waves of it. I mean, on some level, even this stress is a natural part of life, but I think a part of our growth is just working with it to not stay stuck in stress. We want to do things and change behaviors so that we can regulate our system to come back to a more homeostatic set point. That is one of like you’re saying, openness, relaxation, alertness, but calm.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:06:23]:
Right. I’m curious, Keith, what you think? I mean, this is veering off into a more of a philosophical kind of sociocultural domain with this question. But you know, one of the things that I’m tracking is the gap between the haves and the have nots in our culture is really broadening. And I’m kind of wondering about the stress of receiving that. The American dream or the, you know, the dream of owning your own home or being able to retire and having enough money to, you know, have a comfortable experience and so on. How much of that stress is happening? You know, in the zeitgeist? It seems, it seems strong to me, but I don’t know if that’s my perception.

Keith Kurlander [00:07:03]:
How much stress are people feeling like they are under resourced?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:09]:
Is that the, like you’re not going to be able to get where you want to get to in your life, like to have the security or the being comfortable enough or having the resources to, you know, buy your groceries, have a, have a roof over your head, you know, not be stressed in that way.

Keith Kurlander [00:07:27]:
Well, if we start with financial stress, right. Which leads to sometimes the. Either literally or abstractly leads to, you know, feeling like you don’t have basic security. I would say many people live in a state of financial stress. I think many people do. I don’t know the number. I mean, I mean, we could look and see what, what kind of research has been done on that. But my guess is most people have some state of financial stress. That would be my guess. And I think that that’s a, you know, what do you do with that? That’s a good place to start. What do you do with that? Most people probably live in a state of financial stress, worried about money on some. In some way, in some fashion. And.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:08:15]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:08:16]:
What do you do with that?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:08:17]:
Yeah, money or some other version of security. Some other way to think about not feeling safe in your neighborhood or not having the resources to get more education or change your career or move to a different place. I think that these, these are real stresses. And I also think that the psychological framework of assigning responsibility or the cause of one’s stress outside of you and feeling like a victim of your situation is stressful too. And just having that mentality is a stressful mentality.

Keith Kurlander [00:08:52]:
Well, if we go to what, what actually triggers the stress response and then we could come back to this financial stress or environmental stress, you know, what actually triggers the stress response? Again, we’re not talking about what triggers like a full blown fight or flight response where you’re like fighting for your life or running away. We’re not talking about the survival response. We’re talking about something. And let’s say this is a spectrum in the nervous system, right? Since this is all conceptual when we talk about fight versus flight, their concepts to describe systems in the body. So let’s say it’s a spectrum of the stress response is sort of like a lower level response in the nervous system maybe than a full blown survival response where you’re like, you know, physically fighting or running away or collapsing or. You know, I think that what triggers the stress response is mostly in perception, right? I mean, if there’s an actual threat, you’re going to go into a survival response system. But so if we, if we tone that down a notch, we say, well, there’s a perceived threat that’s causing stress. Like the things we mentioned earlier, the wars are stressing you, the inflation, right? Like not having as much money as you once had. There’s a perception of, there’s a perception that, you know, and maybe it’s true, like things are harder right now. It takes more effort to have the same results or, or we’re going to lose more soon, right? Like it’s hard now, but it’s trending to be even harder. These kinds of things are stressful for people, right? That perception, a perception of a loss of control is maybe at the highest level of it all. I can’t control any of this. Out of control, would you say?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:10:38]:
Does it, does it, does it work to just say we perceive more drawbacks than benefits?

Keith Kurlander [00:10:44]:
I would say that you definitely have to perceive more drawbacks and benefits in a, in a true stress response. Don’t think you could be perceiving more benefits than drawbacks. I think that would be a you, you stress response versus a distress response, right? And I think you’re also perceiving a loss of control in some way over your situation.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:11:04]:
Well, A loss of control would be more drawbacks than benefits, right?

Keith Kurlander [00:11:08]:
Yeah, yeah, that too. I mean, it’s. That would be another angle on. It is more drawbacks than benefits, for sure. But I think there’s just like a deep feeling of like inside one’s identity. It would be more like a feeling of being out of control on some level. I think so. I think those have to be there to be stressed on some level.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:11:29]:
I think the way it often shows up in my psychology for me personally is that if I perceive what’s happening as on the way as opposed to this is in the way, or I’m. I’m veering off of the trail into a dead end or a, a detour or something, then I feel a lot of stress in that perception.

Keith Kurlander [00:11:49]:
Yeah, for me, stress versus panic. I’m stressed when I perceive this might take me off the path in some way. I might not get what I want. But it’s not written in stone yet. That’s stress for me. I’m like, not sure, is this on the way or is this not on the way? So for me, like, stress is that in between. Like, I’ve lost sight of like, you know, I’m on the way for sure. But I’m not in a full blown. This is definitely not on the way. Once I cross over to this is definitely not on the way, I’m in, I’m in like full blown panic mode. Like my stress is so high that it’s more panic level stuff. Mental health disorder level stuff for me would start to service in that level of like, there’s no way this is on the way. And then I’m panicked. I feel totally out of control. I feel like life is going the wrong way. And that’s like almost an existential crisis for me to that degree now. I don’t think that’s everyone. I think like some people may be more like you where it’s like it’s not as extreme know.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:13:01]:
Right. I mean, obviously we’re talking about responses that are out of proportion to the actual stimulus. Right. So I mean, it would be a tall, it would be a tall order. I mean, more than a tall order. It would be kind of crazy to, you know, speak with someone in extreme poverty or who’s experiencing environmental toxins or, you know, some kind of existential threat like that and say, well, you just need to see this is in the way or on the way and not in the way and you’ll be.

Keith Kurlander [00:13:30]:
Well, they. You wouldn’t say that as the first intervention. Like if someone’s starving, you give them a bowl of food, right? Like you don’t tell them to keep starving and then.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:13:39]:
But just feeling differently, just feel the hunger.

Keith Kurlander [00:13:42]:
Yeah, well, or just be like, just see how this is going to make you a stronger person later. You wouldn’t say that. But we’re talking about, we’re not so much talking about that level of survival right now because that’s survival response that needs to be resolved. Right. And I think that’s good to call that distinction. We’re talking about a level up from true basic survival response. And in the level up, you know, the mind is, it’s fickle, it’s, it’s easy to, it’s easy to just go into these places where we’re like, yeah, life isn’t going the, it’s not, it’s not on the way, right. That’s very easy to get in that mindset. And then a stress response is surfacing. You know, an example would be like a period where, I mean, this isn’t happening now, where me and my wife were just having a harder time with each other. And it’s like a lot more fighting and a lot more. Obviously we’ve been through these periods. A lot more tension between us, a lot more uncertainty of how it’s gonna resolve. That’s very stressful because it’s like, where is this going? What’s going to happen? How are we going to get through this? Are we going to get through this? I mean, even in the most securely attached relationship, if it’s really hard, you’re always like, well, I don’t see the other way out of here yet. So it’s stressful.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:15:05]:
Oh, I totally agree. I mean, when my wife and I are in a rupture, it’s very stressful. And if we held a more conventional view about long term partnership and what I mean by conventional view, like, oh, if we have a conflict, this means our relationship is fucked, or we’re, we don’t have a good relationship because we’re fighting or some version of that. From a conventional standpoint that my stress level is going to be way higher in the ruptures that I experience. So I guess you could say that the measure of security is your ability to see those experiences is on the way to more strength and more connection, more capacity versus, well, our nervous systems.

Keith Kurlander [00:15:45]:
If we’re just talking about relational stress for the moment, like our nervous systems when we’re in a close partnership, right. Like we need to come back together to where the systems are co regulating and if we’re not there. Our nervous systems are stressed because we’re not regulated, because there’s a signal saying something’s off here and there’s kind of some level of danger until we fix it.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:16:09]:
Right, Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:16:10]:
There is a level of threat that the relationship needs to come back together and repair and resolve, or it could damage the relationship.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:16:21]:
Right, Right. Repairs that are not executed or not completed will definitely erode the foundation of your security. No question about that.

Keith Kurlander [00:16:31]:
So coming back to perception of more drawbacks than benefits, that might be the outcome sometimes of getting through a stress response is getting back to seeing more benefits than drawbacks. But it’s not necessarily always the road to getting out of a stress response. It’s one way, but it’s not. It’s not. The only way that is going to work to get out of a stress response is just cognitively try and hack it. Like, that’s not the only way. Obviously we know that.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:00]:
Of course, many, many, many different tools that we can get into.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:04]:
So should we talk about some tools or are we not there yet?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:09]:
I don’t think we’re quite there yet.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:10]:
I mean, we need to talk about how to even know if you’re stressed still.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:13]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:14]:
Are you stressed right now?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:16]:
I mean, if I. If I feel inside my body, my shoulders are a little raised, a little tight. I think I’m. Whenever we’re recording a podcast, I’m wanting it to be useful and value, you know, valuable to people. So I carry a little. It’s not. Not severe, but a little bit of stress around that. Making sure that this is not a waste of time for folks to be listening.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:37]:
Yeah. Making sure they like you. Do you like?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:43]:
Definitely.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:44]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:45]:
Maybe it’s in the way for people to not like me.

Keith Kurlander [00:17:48]:
Yeah. Maybe it’s on the way. Maybe you should say something they don’t like. Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:56]:
Yeah. I mean, I. I enjoy conversations with you and, and recording the show with you. So, I mean, whatever things that are happening in my body, I do experience as being on the way to a fuller expression of myself. So I’m willing to undergo whatever the biomarkers might show right now in terms of my physiology in order to deliver the goods to people.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:19]:
Yeah. So you might be in a eustress response.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:22]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:22]:
Maybe you’re not distressed.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:24]:
I think so.

Keith Kurlander [00:18:25]:
I’m probably not distressed in this moment, but I. I’ve been stressed today, actually parts of the day. I’m not stressed in this moment. But, you know, I. I had this, I told you this kind of surfacing of this neck pain. In the last week and screwing with my sleep and now I got lower back pain. I’m like, oh, like when I slow down, like, I’m not going to say it’s only about stress. I don’t think it is. But there’s like stress responses going on there. It’s like a signal that actually. Oh, a part of this is I’m stressed, you know, so, yeah, stress is my friend.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:19:02]:
You want to say more about that, how you and stress are friends?

Keith Kurlander [00:19:06]:
I’ve been friends with Mr. And Mrs. Stress my whole life. Well, again, we all have. But the stress is interesting for me. It’s good, It’s a good question. Am I stressed? Because the eustress versus distress is a very delicate. Like, it gets very gray for me because I can get into pretty high levels of eustress that might be called stress to another person. Like, lot of physic physiological arousal, even tension to some degree. But like, I am feeling very generative because it’s like I’m being called to action, you know, and, you know, it’s like a fighter walking into the ring, right? Like, you need a very high level of eustress in that moment. You don’t want to be in like too much distress walking into the ring, but you definitely need a very high level of agitation in your system to be ready to, you know, produce that much energy through your body.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:20:09]:
Agitation or is it focus, presence, intensity?

Keith Kurlander [00:20:15]:
Well, I would say intensity, you definitely need focus and all that. But I. Arousal might be a better word than agitation. You need a very high level of arousal that doesn’t fall into distress. So for me, it’s slippery. Like, I can easily go into distress and be like Kermit the Frog biting my nails in the corner, like, kind of. Actually, I probably do bite my nails, unfortunately. But then I can also often be in more of like the fighter entering the ring where I’m just like, bring it on. Like, okay, I’m a little stressed here, but I’m ready to attack this thing. I’m ready to do the next thing. I’m ready to whatever it is. It could be about my family and how do we make this better in my marriage or our house better. Or, you know, it could be a project. It could be about a new course we’re developing where I’m like, we got to make a new course and people need something new. And so, so it’s just, it’s delicate for me. I, you know, I, I’ve obviously suffered from a lot of mental health stuff, so I can easily slip into a distressed state. But I also function at my best typically in a EU stress state. So right now, I would say right now in this moment, I’m more in a EU stress state in this moment. And honestly I probably slipped into a distressed state this morning around my back. So it’s really good to track these things. I think like to know yourself well because if you don’t know if you’re in a distressed state, you’ll just go and you’ll burn out your body. Imagine the impact you could have with your clients when you’re able to practice the most cutting edge modality available today. Psychedelic therapy is the future of mental healthcare and the Integrative Psychiatry Institute will empower you with the tools and knowledge you need to master this exciting modality. IPI’s comprehensive training and in person experiential practicums will elevate you personally and professionally. Its in depth curriculum is the gold standard certification in the field. When you join, you will step into a global community of thousands of innovative colleagues who are integrating psychedelic therapy into their practices. Visit psychiatryinstitute.com Reply where you will find all the information you need about IPI’s training. And when you visit psychiatryinstitute.com apply you’ll also receive IPI’s free ebook Getting Started with Psychedelic Therapy so you can get the most up to date information immediately. Again, that’s psychiatryinstitute.com apply to learn more about the training and to get your free ebook.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:22:56]:
Right. Well that brings up for me some of the science or some of the ways to like actually measure what’s going on. Like I wonder sometimes about the differences in perception one person to another in terms of what’s really going on in their physiologic state, bearing in mind that physiology and the ranges that we think of as normal or population averages. Right, so someone like Lance Armstrong’s not going to have like a normal range of certain things, like stress for example, in his body. It’s actually really interesting to study a leader guard. It’s a whole nother conversation. But for our purposes, like if one person perceives very little stress but their heart rate variability has dropped in half, or their blood sugar has doubled, or their cortisol levels have tripled in that moment, what does that mean about that person? Right, they need to calibrate probably their perception. They’re saying that there are three out of ten on a stress scale, but their physiology, their markers compared to their baseline are double. Then you know, maybe they need to figure out how to redefine the scale for them.

Keith Kurlander [00:24:03]:
Yeah. I mean, it also could mean again that they’re in more of a eustress state. I think we have to, you know, I think you gotta kind of go deeper into the markers too. Of like. Because usually stress leads to depletion. Right. Over time.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:17]:
Over time, yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:24:18]:
Right. So then you go deeper into the markers looking for depletion. Like, is this person’s, you know, baseline cortisol levels really low? So now they’re depleted. They still spike, but they’re low. Right. So I think.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:30]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:24:31]:
But, you know, there’s no. I don’t know. Is there a really hard science here to know what the heck’s going on? What would you say? Maybe?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:38]:
Well, the tricky thing is that because everyone’s so individual in their responses to stress, that if you really want to know what’s going on with you, you need to have baseline levels of biomarkers for you personally.

Keith Kurlander [00:24:50]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:50]:
That’s why I say, like, you know, one of these Tour de France guys whose baseline heart rate is 30 or 35 beats per minute, and, you know, mine at rest is like in the high 40s. It doesn’t mean that I have a really high heart rate.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:04]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:04]:
So most people, it’s extremely rare. I can only think of a handful of people who are thought leaders in this area who go to the trouble of getting baseline biomarkers on themselves.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:15]:
Yeah, that’s next level stuff, but it is cool to. It’s good to do, but it is next level stuff and it. You don’t have to go to that level in order to succeed in reducing your sugar.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:24]:
Of course. Of course.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:26]:
But you’re right, like, if you really want to start to understand from biomarker level, like, you need. You need history on yourself, you need to do mood mapping and all kinds of stuff to really understand what these markers translate as.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:40]:
For sure, for sure. But I think most people can tell when the experiences that they have under stress have melted away. You know, you can tell the difference in your perception and you can train your perception to notice these changes.

Keith Kurlander [00:25:55]:
I think too, you know, going back to our perception is key, which is these fundamental questions you can answer. Is your stress right now on the way?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:05]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:26:05]:
Are you on the way to solving the thing you’re thinking about? Are you engaged in that pursuit? Do you feel fulfilled in that pursuit? Do you want to take on that pursuit? Right. I think there are ways to distinguish, at least between eustress and distress. For some people, the next level is I don’t even. Didn’t even realize I had anything happening in my body. I don’t. I didn’t feel any. Any physiological response around stress in my body. Right. That would be a different thing. Sometimes the markers are really helpful there actually. Right. Seeing like extreme adrenal fatigue or things that, like, you. You’ve been so chronically stretched and you’re so depleted that you don’t even have that much energy anymore to feel the stress response, even though it’s still happening. So that could be helpful.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:53]:
Totally. And, you know, I think I just want to say that there’s also this kind of background ambient level of stimulation in our nervous system that is actually not cyclical. It doesn’t. I mean, we might have higher periods of stress, but when we go into lower periods of stress, there’s still a tremendous amount of inputs into our nervous system.

Keith Kurlander [00:27:15]:
Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:27:15]:
You know, there’s a constant parade of at least somewhat disturbing information in social media, in the news, in your phone. It’s right there. And I think. I think it’s just. I think it’s important to acknowledge that our physiology is a cyclical kind of physiology. You know, I mean, everything from the macro of like going through seasons, going through periods of sleep and periods of arousal. But I think that the baseline level of arousal that we’re experiencing is inherently challenging to. For our physiology to maintain. Period. You know, and that’s where I think it makes sense when people make a decision to, you know, turn off their phone for the week, you know, learn how to meditate or do cold plunges and saunas, or, you know, do. Do things that help kind of support this more cyclical phenomenon in our physiology.

Keith Kurlander [00:28:06]:
That’s. Yeah, I like that a lot. You know, I would say that there’s a list of things that might be a signal of distress. Right. You know, whether that’s headaches or, you know, major gut problems. You’re having tension back tension. Right. Like sleep issues.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:28:26]:
Yep.

Keith Kurlander [00:28:27]:
Uh, you get sick all the time. Very irritable. You’re overwhelmed a lot. You know, you could have the opposite of what stress, which is like the. The hopelessness, helplessness, feelings.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:28:38]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:28:38]:
Concentration’s off. Right. You’re having difficulty concentrating. Uh, you feel very racy. Your thoughts are racing. You feel racy. Could be resorting to a lot of addiction and stress responses, addictive behaviors.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:28:53]:
Sure.

Keith Kurlander [00:28:54]:
Right. You could be fighting a lot, like, conflicts. A lot, a lot. Having trouble staying focused at work. So I think there’s like a whole lesson and a lot of people might just think these are normal and be like, like, if you ask them Are you stressed? Like, not really. But then, like, you. You start thinking about it more. You talk about these items, and then it’s like, well, this, this, and this is happening. And they’re like, oh, I just thought that was normal, you know?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:19]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:29:19]:
A lot of people, whatever our stress response is, like, I could speak for myself. So, you know, like, I. I’ll live in pain for five years, and we’ll just be like, oh, I just thought that’s normal to be in significant pain, you know?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:32]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:29:33]:
And I’ll just be like, oh, I just thought that’s how it is. Like, I didn’t. Yeah, yeah. So I think it’s just good, like, to have these kind of items when we’re thinking about, like, are you in stress? And kind of going through a list like that and just being like, well, maybe. Maybe this list is big enough that I am in a stress response. And I. I didn’t really know it. Or a chronic stress response. We could say, maybe it’s not time to do something different. Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:56]:
Absolutely. And, you know, I think about our children, too, and, you know, growing up in this ambient level of arousal that’s much higher than what our grandparents grew up in. And, for example, I remember when my daughter, who’s grown up now, but she was one of the guinea pigs with Snapchat when she was 12 when it first came out, and she started sneaking her phone into the bedroom at night and having it in her bed at night. And we were noticing how irritable and dysregulated she seemed during the day. And at first we didn’t realize that she was using her phone, you know, throughout the night with her friends. And children, I think, also need to be taught. Right. They need to be guided and taught about, like, the rhythms of their nervous system and why getting enough sleep is critical, taking breaks.

Keith Kurlander [00:30:42]:
Yep. I mean, I’m going, shoot. Is that why I feel the way I do? I’ve been scrolling YouTube too much. Whoops.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:51]:
I might want to listen to the doctor over here, take your prescription.

Keith Kurlander [00:30:54]:
I’d rather stay stressed. But, no, it’s true. I mean, you know, if we’re talking about teens and stress, it’s a great point. I mean, no, it’s hard to recognize stress as an adult, and as a teen, it’s even harder. I mean, you’re just. You’re still learning about who you are and how you have. What it’s like to be in your body, and what are the signals when something is off or not off, and you’re like, you’re just in a constant learning there in a deep way. And like you don’t know. You know, a lot of people don’t know. And then you. But you see, you see it in behaviors usually. Right. In teens, you’ll see that often.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:29]:
Sure. I mean, the, the, the social stress can be very high. It usually is for.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:35]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:36]:
Almost all teenagers. Do I fit in? What’s my identity? Who am I? Do people like me? So on. It’s intense.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. Fortunately, I don’t care if people like me that much.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:47]:
So you’ve got, you’ve got other issues.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:50]:
That one. I’ve got other issues. I’m a loner. So let’s talk about how you solve some of this stress. Right. Like, what do you do about it?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:31:59]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:31:59]:
And this is the art. This is an art. It’s the art of self care, really. Right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:32:03]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:32:04]:
In modern living, like, you know, self care over the course of human history becomes a practice in an art form, whereas very early on it’s a part of the natural cycle of life in the day. Like, you can’t avoid it. It’s just like, you know, let’s say tens of thousands of years ago, it’s just like embedded into the animal body and how we were acting and, and then that gets separated over time. So now where. With what’s so complex and so much going on, so much information, so much choice what to do with your time and that those rhythms are. Obviously, you have to work at it now. It has to be a practice or it doesn’t happen. Right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:32:44]:
Absolutely.

Keith Kurlander [00:32:45]:
Stress naturally, like, you know, like animals in nature will, like they’ll, they’ll release stress responses much more naturally than us, whether it’s running or playing or shaking, whatever it is, sounds, all that stuff. Right. Resting now, it’s practice.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:00]:
Well, even just on a basic level, like having. Let’s just say you got an infection, you’re a caveman, you’re gonna have this cascade of signals in your body that tell you to isolate yourself. Right. Or, you know, like you got a scratch from a saber tooth tiger and it’s infected and you know, you’re back in your back of your cave, like healing and withdrawn from whatever else you might be doing. Like when we get sick in general, we try to push through it. We. We try to work. Sometimes kids get to stay home from school when they’re sick. But a lot of times, like if you’re me, you didn’t want to be there, so you would go to school anyway. So, anyway, I think these are, like you said, These are signals that we don’t. They’re. They’re a little bit faint. Like the signal strength is faint because of the ambient arousal.

Keith Kurlander [00:33:45]:
Right?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:45]:
That’s true, but. But nevertheless, you know, the physiologic rig that we’re in, except. Except keys, which is unique.

Keith Kurlander [00:33:52]:
Except mine knees. Why? Because I have more stress.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:33:58]:
You just have a different rig over there. It’s sort of like it’s become something that can’t be automatic anymore. We have to take charge.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:06]:
Yeah.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:07]:
Downregulating our arousal.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:08]:
That’s right. It’s no easy feat to do it well.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:11]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:11]:
Like, you really gotta work at it. Yeah, you really do. Takes educating oneself. It takes developing new habits and discipline and persistence and constant fine tuning. Like it’s a. It’s a work in progress.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:34:26]:
It is. And not doing it makes us much more prone. Living in chronic stress, chronic inflammation makes us more prone to infections, cancer, chronic diseases, diabetes, you know, I mean, you name it. Alzheimer’s disease. Things that kill people in modern America are more likely when you’re stressed.

Keith Kurlander [00:34:44]:
And if we go sort of thinking back in time, I mean, there are three very essential, I think, elements for releasing stress, restoring the nervous system, and that’s movement, which we’ll call exercise. Right now, that’s food, which we’ll say is healthy. Nutrition. Right. And sleep.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:05]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:06]:
Those three need constant attention that we’re working at those to make. I mean, you could do a whole bunch of other stuff, but if those three are off, you’re in trouble, which stress. Hard to reset the stress response without those three.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:19]:
Right. And I mean, and then you would maybe at the next tier down, you might add, or I don’t even know. Depends on the person if it’s the next tier or not. But relationships that feel mutual and rewarding, beneficial, meaningful work. Without that, I think it’s really hard to not feel stressed.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:38]:
Purpose, meaning clean relationships.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:42]:
Exactly.

Keith Kurlander [00:35:42]:
This is the next trifecta.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:35:44]:
You know, obviously, clean water. Some people underestimate the importance of fresh air and sunshine. More and more evidence about underexposure to sunshine. Dermatologists in the audience are probably writing me a negative comment right now in our podcast notes. Yeah, but that’s true. You know, again, it’s cycles. It’s like stimulating the backs of your eyes with sunshine.

Keith Kurlander [00:36:07]:
So these are just like. Again, this is just returning to the natural elements and extensions of the body that need to be addressed. And then we get into some sort of. We go out another rung, and then we get into, like, meditation, where we’re actually doing you could call meditation a science. Spiritual technology. Spiritual technology, a technology. You could call it the, you know, technology to actually interface with our mind and nervous system. And meditation is one of those technologies that is an incredible technology. Right. That was sure cultivated and discovered so long ago. It’s not going away anytime soon as a very useful way to regulate a stress response.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:36:52]:
I agree. It’s one of the most effective and ancient technologies there is. Yep.

Keith Kurlander [00:36:58]:
And of course, working with one’s breath is a. Is a incredible technology that is also very old, you know, doing different types of breathing exercises.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:08]:
Mm.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:09]:
Very old technology to breathing patterns and how you’re breathing can change your physiology instantly.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:17]:
Yeah, instantly.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:18]:
Instantly. It’s amazing.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:20]:
Something have taught a lot of people about in my practice who have anxiety and insomnia and depression and so on. The cool thing about stress management is that most of the things that you’re. That are the most effective are readily available without any bells and whistles. Like you don’t need to go buy something.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:37]:
Right. Yeah, I agree. Pretty amazing. I mean, we have the tools, I mean the. You can get fancy, which, you know, I like to do that. I try and do that. But you can’t disregard the tools that are free because if you do, you’re still going to be stressed.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:37:52]:
Right.

Keith Kurlander [00:37:52]:
Yeah. And then we get into some more, you know, what we’re seeing more now develop and research more from kind of a biohacking world with like sauna and cold plunge. You know, cold plunging is very interesting technology in terms of again, maybe natural, a long time ago to have just gotten cold water. I mean, you weren’t getting in hot water that often a long time ago, that’s for sure. Unless you were by a hot spring, you were in cold water. So again, in some ways it’s an ancient mechanism that we’re sort of rediscovering of how that can. So, you know, such a great impact on the immune system and the nervous system. Uh, it’s cool. So biohacking, cold plunge, sauna, ing, hot, cold hot tubs, all these things are very useful.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:38:40]:
The basics, right. Spending high quality time with high quality people that you really feel filled up by those. Those experiences. Having fun, laughter, play, dance. Right?

Keith Kurlander [00:38:53]:
Yeah, it’s a good one.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:38:54]:
It’s easy. You know, when people get very driven or very hyper focused on something, they forget to do fun things or forget. They might even think having fun or playing or laughing with your children is like not productive. You could think that way.

Keith Kurlander [00:39:08]:
Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. I love that time with my kids. It’s Great. And it’s such a stress reliever to laugh with kids.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:39:17]:
Yes.

Keith Kurlander [00:39:17]:
Such a stress reliever. Yeah, That’s a good one. I like that one. And then, of course, more cognitive. I mean, not just cognitive, but also behavioral. Like, you know, being. Managing your time well.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:39:30]:
Yeah, that’s big.

Keith Kurlander [00:39:31]:
Knowing that you’re managing your time well. Efficiency, values driven behavior. Values driven behavior. Right. Like, making sure there’s a lot of behavior throughout the day that feels valuable to you.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:39:43]:
It’s huge. When you talk about time management, like, I. I think about, like, time blocking. Like, one of the things I was just doing this this morning. I was sitting. I have an infrared sauna. I was sitting in the sauna, and I was trying not to look at my phone, and I was checking inside of my head. I was thinking, how long can I go without checking my phone in here? Because it would be a really good. Arguably, it’d be a great time to do the things we’re talking about.

Keith Kurlander [00:40:06]:
And how long did you last?

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:40:08]:
Maybe eight, ten seconds at a time.

Keith Kurlander [00:40:11]:
Ten seconds. That’s like when I’m working out at the gym and I’m like, I got. I’m. I’m focused, and I’m looking down at the phone, you know, and all of a sudden, I just tweaked my back because I’m looking at my phone, like, yeah, I’m really focused on my phone.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:40:32]:
Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:40:33]:
Right. Yeah, yeah. It’s work in progress. But I think also this. This concept of can we take space from distractions and information so we can get into rest, restore, and recover? And that’s. That’s not easy to do, but it’s simple in concept.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:40:52]:
Simple concept.

Keith Kurlander [00:40:53]:
Not easy, but simple.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:40:54]:
Yeah. And necessary, I think. Yeah.

Keith Kurlander [00:40:57]:
So maybe we wrap up on simple but not easy.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:41:00]:
Sounds good.

Keith Kurlander [00:41:01]:
Yeah. Get out of stress. Simple but not easy. All right.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:41:05]:
All right. See you next time.

Keith Kurlander [00:41:06]:
Bye.

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:41:08]:
We look forward to connecting with you again on the next episode of the Higher Practice podcast, where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health.