The Dark Side of Wellness Culture – Keith Kurlander & Will Van Derveer – HPP 140

Keith Kurlander [00:00:06]:

Thank you for joining us for the Higher practice podcast. I’m Keith Kurlander with Doctor Will Van Derveer. And this is the podcast where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:23]:

Well, we’re back.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:00:24]:

We’re back. Here we are. How long has the hiatus been?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:28]:

About a year and a half.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:00:30]:

Wow. Okay. We gotta, I gotta dust off some. You know, the rust and the. I got some issues over here. I’m like the Tin man in the wizard of Oz. I gotta get some oil in my joints.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:43]:

I had a physical therapist tell me I was the Tin man one time.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:00:46]:

Yeah, well, now we both are.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:00:48]:

You’ve had a lot going on. Why don’t you let me know what you went up to?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:00:52]:

Well, it’s been a big year. Well, personally, I have a new child. I already have a six year old. Now I have an eight month old. Matai. He’s awesome. You know Matai?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:04]:

Well, great guy. Love that guy.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:01:06]:

Yeah. His personality is coming out now, so he likes to cuddle and nuzzle and roar. Much like myself.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:15]:

He might be a little more cuddly than you. I’m not sure.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:01:17]:

Well, I was gonna say I roar more than I cuddle. And then. Yeah, I had one. Yeah, I had spinal surgery, so that was a big deal. That was unexpected. Spinal surgery removed the tumor. That was benign. Spinal surgery is not fun. But, you know, we’re talking about the dark side of wellness today, so there’s kind of a context where healing isn’t always fun.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:40]:

Yeah, exactly. We like to. We like to think so, but. Yeah. So. I’m so glad that went well.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:01:48]:

Yeah. So. And then, you know, we’ve been busy. I’ve been busy with you at the institute, and, you know, there’s all these new states that, you know, keep coming and popping up.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:01:56]:

That’s right. And, you know, the other thing that happened is really, over the last year and a half, we wrote our book together.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:02:02]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:03]:

And we’re in the middle of talking to publishers about it, so it’s pretty exciting.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:02:07]:

That’s right. Right. So, we’re doing a psychedelic therapy book. Yeah. Well, what have you been up to?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:12]:

What have I been up to? Gosh, yeah. Like you just chipping away at different projects at the institute, different programs, optimizing the psychedelic therapy training, launching other programs in the neverending process of somatic therapy for who knows how much longer. I’m starting to question it now in their topic of toxic wellness, how far.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:02:36]:

You mean your own somatic therapy?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:38]:

Yeah. Why am I still doing that?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:02:40]:

Well, you’re what, like 700 hours in, maybe more. Well, I guess if you include it on the cushion, you’re like, oh, man.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:02:50]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, you know, over 100 episodes on the other podcast I do with my wife Krista, which is really fun. The art of we. So that’s it. That’s been a lot of fun to do.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:03:03]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:03:03]:

So we’re back.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:03:04]:

We’re back. We’re back on the dark side, too. We’re coming back with the dark side of the moon.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:03:10]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:03:10]:

So, dark. Dark side of wellness.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:03:12]:

Dark side of wellness.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:03:14]:

Yeah. There’s some inspiration in this conversation, though. That’s not all. It’s not all about the dark.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:03:21]:

Yeah, it’s not about the dark, but it’s worth talking about, because in the world of wellness and the whole, so to speak, wellness industry, there’s so much focus on moving the needle in a positive direction. Right. Trying to get more goodness and less badness. And in the world of spirituality, that can be quite a big misunderstanding or big dead end, I would say.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:03:48]:

Yeah, it’s, I think, common. So wellness culture, I think now for sort of more, the general culture includes a lot of spiritual seekers inside the wellness culture, and I would say that, yeah. Seeking a one sided reality, like more happiness, less discomfort, more joy, less pain, more. Less sorrow, you could say kind of this one sided reality thing. It leads to the same problem you’re already in, which is fighting for a one sided reality. You’re already in that reality, probably, yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:04:31]:

And it’s an interesting kind of, when I think about it, it’s an interesting polarity between wellness culture and spirituality culture. Because for me, when I think about wellness, I think about health and I think about trying to move away from disease into more thriving or more wellness. And there is absolutely an emphasis on getting into more sunshine and away from more of the shadow or the dark. Getting your numbers into physiologic range when those numbers are deranged in the beginning. Right. So it’s a really interesting kind of polarity or balance, I think, between what we might call. I might call a more spiritual perspective, that there’s yin and yang, there’s light and shadow, there’s up and down. It all comes to a balance of zero in the universe. I mean, I really do believe that on a spiritual level. And yet, as a practitioner, I’ve spent decades supporting people to develop more order and less disorder in their lives, in their bodies, and their perspectives. So it’s just. It’s very interesting.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:05:46]:

Yeah. I mean, I think where it becomes the dark side of wellness. Like, obviously, you and I are trying to biohack and we can get to spirituality a little bit, but we just talk about physically right now, what’s the latest research says about longevity? And it’s like working on strength and body mass and body fat levels and field two max and all this stuff. Right.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:06:12]:

Variability.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:06:13]:

Yeah. Metabolic, good conditioning but, and all that means. I think that’s all great, but where’s the dark side? I think the dark side is when it either becomes an obsession. I think obsessing about anything usually results in anxiety. And when it becomes anxiety, the thing you’re trying to do, which is to create more strength, resiliency and stability and probably relaxation in your nervous system, has a baseline. You’re now undoing that. That’s where the dark side of wellness is when you start, actually, now you’re elevating your cortisol and the whole pursuit, and you’re becoming perfectionistic. And this is a major dark side of wellness. Culture is becoming perfectionistic. Right. And we don’t, you know, you can’t tell who’s going to live when in any of this, but as soon as we flip into perfectionism, we’re not. In reality, we’ll never be perfect. We’re going to age, we’re going to die.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:14]:

Right, right. We’re in the world of our mental apparatus or the world of ego, right? The world of self preservation, narcissism, let’s say obsession with the self, perfectionism. All of these things bring a lot of misery, actually.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:07:32]:

Right?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:07:33]:

And of course, we live in a culture that reifies the ego. Right. The. The pinnacle of psychotherapy prior to, I would say prior to Carl Jung or prior to transpersonal perspectives, you know, psychoanalytic theory, at least in the Freudian sense, was all about getting the ego to its most healthy or most strong point that it could get to. And there was nothing beyond that in terms of development.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:08:01]:

Right? Well, I think most traditions in psychotherapy are about self. I mean, cognitive, behavioral, existential, even humanistic like. It tends to be about self inner peace more than, you know. There are different traditions that maybe get into a more social, relational function and things, but it tends to be more about us. You go to therapy usually alone. I mean, maybe you go with your partner, but it’s a solo affair.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:08:34]:

That’s right.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:08:35]:

Yeah, yeah. And that’s a good thing. I mean, personal development, I’m all for it. Obviously, you’re all for it. But I think we’re talking about the dark side of that pursuit here. So now if we’re talking more about the mind pursuit, like mental wellness, I think it’s similar when we’re obsessing about ourselves and you know, I think it can come out in a lot of different ways. It’s like I don’t want to feel a certain way, I don’t want to have to have certain feelings, I don’t want to be a certain way. And a lot of shoulds that were sort of basically enacted in therapy.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:09:08]:

Yeah, absolutely. It’s this whole conveyor belt once again, of the ego. I would say that tells us that after we get to a, b, and c, and that could be a measurement of physiology, like your heart rate variability, or you can put your leg behind your head in yoga or, you know, whatever. The thing is, I can lift a certain amount on my bench press or something, then i’ll feel good, then i’ll be free, then i’ll feel xyz. Right?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:09:43]:

I mean, I felt a little better when I got past 200 and bench press and when I got my leg behind my back when I was in my twenties, but it didn’t solve much, but I felt a little better. So I think we get a little reward out of those things. But you’re right, it’s sort of like, okay, now what?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:10:03]:

Yeah, every time, every time we achieve some milestone across the finish line, you know, it feels a little bit empty. It’s like, okay, what now?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:10:15]:

Yeah, yeah. It’s a delicate balance on a path of wellness, of, obviously there is, you know, self mastery isn’t a bad thing. It’s a great thing to be on a path of self mastery and that, you know, including getting outside of oneself and. Yeah, but, but there’s also this delicate balance.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:10:38]:

Yeah, I think, I think some of it is just taking ourselves too seriously.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:10:41]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:10:42]:

You know, which is easy to do right now because there’s a lot of scary things happening in the world and, you know, things that a lot of people would say are existential threats, you know?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:10:53]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:10:53]:

To, to humanity, to the planet and so on. It is a scary time for me anyway, but, you know, if we get super clamped down on how scary things are, it’s a similar problem. Right. It’s a similar kind of demand in reality that it needs to be different. Why can’t it be this?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:11:13]:

Yeah, yeah, it’s like we could take, you know, we can take solidified beliefs into not only wellness, obviously, we take solidified beliefs into every area of our life, and solidified beliefs tend to not. It’s where we’re not adaptive. Right. And so there’s a lot of stress and solidified beliefs. So we bring that to wellness, obviously, is the point of this episode. We often bring these solidified beliefs of, like, this is how I need to do it. And, you know, there’s a lot of false starts, usually with solidified beliefs in wellness, whether it’s in nutrition or exercise or some people go the other direction where it’s like, I can’t even start with a solidified belief because then they get stuck in shame. Right. When we have solidified beliefs, well, we’ll be very split inside ourselves. I have to. I don’t look the way I want to look. I don’t feel the way I want to feel. I’m not the right weight. I’m not the right body size. I’m not. Whatever it is. And then what that does is it causes a split in ourselves where we go into shame, we often can’t do that much about it. Or we go into shame and we get aggressive about it and we’re doing self aggression. And that’s the perfectionism thing. It’s still self aggression, though, right?

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:12:27]:

Or another version of it is, you know, someone who. And maybe this is a more primitive version, but, you know, it’s someone who does everything, so to speak. Right? You know, they eat.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:12:38]:

Right.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:12:38]:

They exercise, they practice, you know, whatever. Some spirituality, or they go to yoga, or they do it to try to treat their partner. Right, whatever. And they get cancer. Right? And then their friend says, well, you obviously haven’t, you know, worked through enough of your issues, and that’s why you got cancer. Or, you know, it must be a manifestation.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:12:59]:

Yeah. Or they believe that, too, right? They’re just like, oh, I did something wrong. I mean, that’s actually common. Like, when I got my tumor, I was like, what did I do wrong? You know, I think it’s always a surprise when the body doesn’t go as we wanted it to go. It’s a surprise. It’s a. You know, it’s a shock. And we’re like, wait, that’s me. Like, I didn’t. I didn’t put myself in that category.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:13:23]:

Right.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:13:24]:

You know, and. And this is where we identify with the body, and we create all these identities about how the body should be. And. And this is where it’s all a practice, right? Like, there’s. It’s all just practice. And the learning of. Of being with, it’s like engaging with the body and. And definitely leaning into, like, growth. But then it’s like, how much control do we have.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:13:50]:

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, telling a story about what I do wrong? You know, it could also just be another way to try to make sense of, you know what? Maybe. Maybe there’s a feeling of control, right? That if I knew what I did wrong, then I could control what happens to my body. I could prevent it from happening again.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:14:11]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:15:46]:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. A spiritual ego, maybe. I used to spend a lot of time in Hawaii and not pick on the, you know, settlers, let’s say the North American slash, you know, european descent settlers in Hawaii, too much. But one thing I noticed there was, there was because everything is kind of, it’s kind of like paradise. It becomes really problematic to display in some of the communities that I was in a bad mood or a negative belief or a thought process, you know, and there’s kind of like a lot of cognitive dissonance or you know, kind of difficulty in allowing for imperfection inside of such a beautiful, perfect place. It’s like, well, what do you have to complain about? And so there is this kind of aggression inside of demanding that we live up to a spiritual version of ourselves, of reality or a fantasy that when you are more developed spiritually, you have fewer negative thoughts, Trey.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:16:55]:

Well, that’s a really important, I think, part of this conversation, when you’re spirit, the fantasy of when you’re spiritually developed, you have more negative thoughts.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:04]:

Less negative thoughts.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:17:06]:

Less negative thoughts. Right? Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:09]:

Yes.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:17:09]:

Right, right. Less. So I guess more happy thoughts. Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:15]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:17:15]:

I mean, I think that is a, I don’t think that’s probably, it depends where you’re sort of studying and things. Right. Like, there’s plenty of spiritual communities and stuff that’s not preaching that. But I think that on an individual level, most people would say, I’ll take that. Yes. I would rather not have my negative thought process as much. I think even if a community’s teaching that the practicality of how it actually works for an individual, even on any of these paths, we probably are still fighting with our negative thoughts.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:53]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:17:54]:

Right. I mean, I am.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:17:55]:

Yeah. Well, it’s kind of funny, I mean, in a way, to see how, and I’ll just speak for myself, that, you know, what brought me to spirituality. And I would say I spent, you know, a couple decades of my life in deep, deep search for spiritual answers. A lot of it was driven by suffering. You know, I was suffering. I wanted to suffer less. And I think people can relate to that.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:18:21]:

Sure. Well, if you’re not suffering, there’s nothing to search for.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:24]:

Exactly.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:18:25]:

You’re already there.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:26]:

But then you find out that, or at least what I think I found out there was that the authentic path of spirituality is not about you don’t actually suffering less. When you are more spiritually developed, you might become less attached to your suffering, but the acuity of the suffering doesn’t diminish at all. Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:18:48]:

You might become less identified with it.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:52]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:18:52]:

Right.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:18:53]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:18:54]:

It still comes. I will say that there’s also more and more flow states, which it’s not that there’s an absence of suffering in flow states, but I will say, I think with spiritual development, you can attain more and more states of feeling fulfilled, feelings of fulfillment and gratitude. And there are certain things, I think, that do get cultivated, even though suffering still comes and goes like it always does. Right, right. But then there’s qualities that show up more in the path.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:19:32]:

Yeah, you’re maybe less. You take things less personally, so you’re less attached. Right. So you like to make fun of me when we’re driving in town because.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:19:43]:

Sometimes you’re easy to make fun of when we’re driving. Anybody would make fun of you. I’m driving. It’s like being in a. It’s like, it’s like comedians having coffee.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:19:52]:

Or whatever that is. Yeah, totally. Comedians in cars getting coffee, except the.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:19:56]:

Comedians would be in the passenger seat making fun of you.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:19:59]:

So I’ve come a long way. I mean, I used to be a pretty angry driver, and I didn’t ever get into it.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:20:06]:

You got little. You came a little bit of a way.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:20:10]:

Baby steps.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:20:11]:

Yeah, yeah. Baby steps.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:20:13]:

Yeah, yeah. So I was just going to say I do take things less personally in the car than I used to.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:20:20]:

Yeah, yeah. You only shout for about 3 seconds. Used to shout for, like, 3 miles down the road. That’s a big difference.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:20:27]:

And tell people when I get home about it.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:20:29]:

Yeah, that’s actually a big difference. That’s actually this spiritual maturity.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:20:34]:

Yeah, yeah, getting there.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:20:36]:

Yeah, I know. I think you’re right. Like, on the flip side sort of this dark side is taking things less personally. And it’s, you know, it’s so interesting. It’s like, in the personal development space, and I think somewhat more than sort of spiritual community space, but, you know, it’s about developing self. Right. It’s about, like, developing certain characteristics of self. And even, even if it’s relational self, it’s just like, developed, developing self in the world. Which, again, I’m all for it. I’m definitely on that path. But then there’s also, like, if the dark side doesn’t take over, there’s also an erosion of self in that process. It’s sort of an interesting thing that happens where it’s like self is developing and loosening at the same time.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:21:26]:

Yeah. There was a saying I heard a long time ago that you need to become someone before you can become no one. Um, right. Something along those lines where I think about developing a healthy, flexible ego is. Is a really important stage in the journey, but it’s definitely not the last stage in the journey, and it keeps showing up, you know, totally. Under ideal circumstances, I think of it as, like, the r behind Luke Skywalker, letting you know something’s going on.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:21:58]:

Yeah. Put in just kind of whispering bells in your ear.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:22:01]:

Yeah. Did you, did you remember to send that email? Did you pay your taxes? That kind of stuff?

 

Keith Kurlander [00:22:06]:

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That’s funny. Reminded me of when I was on the beach once in Columbia at the Ayahuasca ceremony. I was hearing r in my head, and I was like, oh, he’s telling me something. I was like, r is trying to tell me to wake up. So it’s like, r? Yeah, that’s interesting. I mean, I think that crosses into this concept of authenticity on the path and the dark side of that. So I’m just like, you hear a lot of them trying to be authentic, speak my truth, be in my truth, live my truth, trying to discover who I am. And again, that all makes total sense from my perspective of I don’t know what else you’re going to be doing. The opposite doesn’t sound very appealing to me. But then there is this shadow in there, right, where what we’re talking about, which is like, when you start solidifying and taking yourself too seriously, what ends up happening is you’re actually now in your quote unquote authenticity. You feel you’re superior.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:15]:

Right.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:23:15]:

You start seeing your own values as better than other people’s values in your authenticity, because you’re just being yourself and speaking your truth. But often what’s happening there is. It’s like, well, I know something more than you, and I’m going to let you know it. I’m going to teach you a lesson.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:35]:

Yeah. Put you in your place.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:23:36]:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:23:39]:

I’m reminded of one of my wife’s heroes. I guess heroin is maybe the better word over the years has been Alanis Marsett. And we had the opportunity to go to her tour in Denver a few weeks ago. And it’s called wholeness, the wholeness tour. And one of the things she said that I thought was so cool, that aligns with what you and I are talking about is that she said, look, we’re not going after wellness. We’re going after wholeness.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:24:03]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:03]:

And it’s. It’s such a cool shift in the conversation because I think wholeness implies embracing all of it. Right, right. The good, the bad, the ugly, the shame, the fear, the pride, illness and wellness. All of it. Right? Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:24:22]:

Yeah. So wellness is almost. It’s almost like it comes with a charge attached to it because it definitely has a clear opposite.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:35]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:24:36]:

It’s not more of a neutral term, so to speak, or it’s not a very wide term. It actually is very. A polarized term.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:24:43]:

Exactly. As soon as you start making a list in your head of this is what enlightenment looks like or this is what a developed person thinks or feels or acts like, then immediately some part of your ego is wanting to act that out to front off some kind of image or go into shame because you’re not actually feeling the feelings or doing the behaviors. An enlightened person always does their exercise routine or never eats dessert or, you know, whatever the thing is.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:25:20]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:21]:

And it’s like, oh, shit, I’m not that anymore.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:25:23]:

Totally.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:25:23]:

You’re on this roller coaster. Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:25:27]:

And my daughter, a six year old daughter, definitely calls me out on that sometimes. You know, I’ll be like, telling her, like, hey, you know, you really. She’ll like, put on an outfit, and I’ll be like, I don’t know. That outfit’s a little, you know, like, you know, and it’s more of like a costume versus, you know, a socially acceptable thing. And she’ll just be like, don’t tell me. It’s, it’s me. It’s my choice, you know? And I’m like, oh, you know, you’re probably right on this one. Like, it’s just like, okay. You know, and it’s just like me putting my filter on her.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:09]:

Right.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:26:10]:

I mean, sometimes that’s not the case, but.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:12]:

Right. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s, and that’s part of the discernment, right. As a parent is like, okay, what actually, you know, making your kid put on a jacket in -20 degree weather is one thing. Right. That’s not just neurotic acting.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:26:27]:

Yeah. It’s more of a boundary around physical health.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:30]:

Right.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:26:31]:

Yeah. Yeah. That’s interesting.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:26:34]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:26:34]:

And then there’s another piece, I think, in this whole conversation around, it’s not just the dark side of wellness culture, it’s the dark side of a sort of spiritual culture. And I also think about this piece of the bypassing around how to actually create something in the world, like through manifestation. And I’m just going to the law of attraction. I’m just going to wish it to happen. And there’s a lot of, again, like, I think there’s a little bit of a dark side in this space of not wanting to make an effort in order to influence the world.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:27:13]:

Yeah. It’s a fantasy that hard work is not involved in creating the world that you want to create.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:27:21]:

Yeah, yeah. And that, yeah. And there is something to be said about attraction on some level. Like, I’ve always, if I go back through my life, there’s some synergistic things that have happened right. In the moments that I’m opening to those things as you know. So there’s like that element, but like, if you take out the work, then it’s just like, it all goes away in my experience. Like it’s nothing more than a moment in time if you don’t attach to it the work and I think that’s, I think that’s the same in just any development path. It’s just that we have to engage in this sort of right effort concept which is not too much, not too little.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:28:06]:

Right exactly. It’s a partnership and a dance with the universe to do your own part. Some people might, in their personality Veer toward I don’t have any control. I can’t author my own experience whatsoever and more of a helpless version. And then you have people like me who kind of get surprised when i’m not in total control of my destiny and get all upset about it. And the truth is probably somewhere in the middle, right. That a friend of mine, a friend of ours, Tammy Simon and I were talking about how much control you have in the things that you try to create. And she said, I think about 35%.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:28:45]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:28:46]:

I was like, oh, I think it’s at least 50%. But as I get older, I think, I think Tammy’s right. I think it’s a lot less than 50%. You know, there’s a lot more going on.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:28:55]:

Yeah. I mean I’m, I’m on your. I thought it was 90% until I got the tumor.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:01]:

Right.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:02]:

Right.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:02]:

That’ll set you straight.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:03]:

That knocked me down another 10%. So I’m still, I’m still at 80, but in another decade I’ll probably be at 50.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:12]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:12]:

And then eventually I’ll be at zero.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:15]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:16]:

Per se. When I die. That’s when it all gets taken away from you.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:20]:

Yeah. Unless it goes maybe.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:22]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:22]:

Goes from like 100% at age two or three and then goes all the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:28]:

At some point it kicks into 100, you know, probably as a, as a kid somewhere.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:33]:

Hopefully.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:34]:

Maybe not some kids, some kids actually feel like it’s 0% and. Yeah. And then it kind of whittles down over the decades as you get home, as you get humbled. So it’s probably like 35%.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:29:46]:

Oh, Mandy. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:29:49]:

Well, that might be a good place to stop, which is to exercise your 35% of control in a right effort way of doing growth and development and healing and going toward wholeness and out of the fantasy of wellness.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:08]:

Yeah. You know, if you can and it’s okay if you can’t, but see if you can keep your sense of humor about the humbling events.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:30:16]:

Yeah.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:17]:

And, you know, it’s okay if you can’t. It’s not a report.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:30:21]:

There’s certain events that you just won’t do for a long time.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:25]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:30:26]:

It takes time, that’s reality, too.

 

Dr. Will Van Derveer [00:30:29]:

Yeah.

 

Keith Kurlander [00:30:30]:

Okay. Till next time. We look forward to connecting with you again on the next episode of the Higher practice podcast, where we explore what it takes to achieve optimal mental health.